Another Putin Discussion with Scientists & Related News

Long Read

The Joint Institute for Nuclear Research, Dubna, Russia

Prior to meeting with research scientists and mega-grant recipients, Putin was given a tour of the above facility. Here’s one of the photos:

Here’s the Kremlin’s readout of the tour:

Accompanied by the Institute's director Grigory Trubnikov, the President inspected the NICA collider ring, got acquainted with the technological features of assembling the collider ring, and inspected the MPD multi-purpose experimental detector. Chief Engineer of the injection complex of the Laboratory of High Energy Physics Artem Galimov and Acting Director of the Laboratory of High Energy Physics Andrey Butenko provided explanations to the Head of state.

The President gave a start to the technological launch of the megasience-class superconducting heavy ion collider of the NICA complex.

The decision to create the NICA complex was made in 2011 at a meeting of the Government Commission on High Technologies and Innovations, construction began in 2016. NICA is based on the unique Russian technology of superconducting magnets with flow cooling by a stream of boiling helium developed at the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research, which has received worldwide recognition.

NICA's capabilities will make it possible to deploy a broad program of applied research on the basis of the Institute for the development of materials science and radiobiology, the development of radiation-resistant microelectronics and protection systems for manned astronautics. The complex, which is already called a "time machine", will help answer one of the fundamental questions: how nuclear matter emerged after the Big Bang, which makes up all objects in the visible universe. [My Emphasis]

As I replied earlier to a comment, Russian research will not just continue to advance science but also bolster metaphysical discussions since it’s beyond proven we are all star stuff. And yes, Putin was involved with the suggestion that founded this facility, although it’s based on the initial complex that was formed in 1956. The Wiki entry has basic background. It’s a genuine joint research facility whose major partner unsurprisingly is the Peoples Republic of China. CERN was formed later by the West to show it too is capable of sharing scientific research. However, it’s clear today that Russian and Chinese scientific institutions and their applications welcome global participation while those of the West don’t, with the various space exploration projects being the most obvious along with the refusal of the Outlaw US Empire to join the rest of Humanity and sign the treaty prohibiting the weaponization of space. Putin has signed the law that officially joins Russia with China in the development of the International Lunar Research Station project that Global Times reported on:

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday officially signed into law his country's cooperation with China on the construction of the International Lunar Research Station (ILRS) project, as Beijing proactively advocates global participation in the joint exploration of the vast universe, with the latest effort being the inclusion of Egypt and Bahrain in China's next Chang'e mission. 

The relevant document was published on a Russian official legal information portal on Wednesday, Sputnik reported. Earlier in March, the Russian government submitted to the parliament's lower house a bill to ratify the agreement with China.

Some 12 more countries and international organizations have signed on to the ambitious initiative, Sergey Savelyev, deputy general director for International Cooperation at Russian state space agency Roscosmos, said in May, according to media reports. 

This will bring the total number of ILRS partners to more than 30 countries and organizations. The ILRS is already reported to have attracted over 20 signatories from various countries and organizations.

Chinese researchers said that basalt will be considered as a material to build the lunar base, the same material that was used to "knit" the Chinese national flag that was proudly unfurled on the far side of the moon on June 4. 

Using local materials on the moon to build the base will save a large amount of costs compared to sourcing materials from the Earth, and the lunar surface is rich in basalt, which can be cut into sheet or tube forms for construction purposes, the Xinhua News Agency reported.

After China carried out a perfect landing of the Chang'e-6 probe on the far side of the moon and brought precious lunar soils back to the Earth, the country's national space administration announced on Tuesday that a payload co-developed by Egypt and Bahrain will board China's next lunar mission - the Chang'e-7, which is scheduled to launch around 2026 to survey the lunar south pole environment, China Central Television reported Tuesday.

The payload is a lunar surface material hyperspectral imaging instrument, the report said.

The international payloads that the Chang'e-7 mission is scheduled to bring include six from seven countries and organizations, namely Egypt, Bahrain, Italy, Russia, Switzerland, Thailand, and the US-based International Lunar Observatory Association.

With China's repeated success in deep space exploration, the prospects for its international cooperation will further expand, Wang Ya'nan, chief editor of Beijing-based Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times.

"For one thing, China has, through a series of successful space missions, demonstrated an exceptionally high capability and reliability. This serves as a prerequisite for a good partnership, where richer samples and more ideal scientific results can be better achieved," Wang noted. 

Furthermore, China has always maintained an open and inclusive attitude toward international cooperation, which is rare in today's complex global landscape, experts said. While the US is busy chanting the "China threat" rhetoric in a so-called space race, China has been walking steadily step by step and produced rich, concrete results, they noted. 

Commenting on China and Russia jointly building the ILRS, Wang said it will have a "whole is greater than the sum of the parts" effect. 

Russia's advantage lies in its expertise in astrophysics and chemistry from its past experience with lunar exploration missions during the Soviet era. China can bridge Russia's gap in resources and talents with its abundant economic and engineering advantages. 

China's rapid growth in aerospace technology has led to the development of reliable engineering resources, including a space station, various kinds of spacecraft and carrier rockets. With well-planned investments and a growing pool of young talent, China and Russia can complement each other well in the field, Wang said. [My Emphasis]

How many international participants? “30 countries and organizations.” For many decades, scientists hoped that the person-to-person contacts resulting from joint research projects would erase the desire by politicians to create divisions instead of cooperation to advance the human condition. Now that the older civilizations are returning to the fore in human leadership, it’s hoped the selfishness of exclusivity will finally be banished to the pages of history books as it’s the primary obstacle preventing human social and cultural evolution. It seems that every time the West tries to inhibit Chinese or Russian development using some illegal methods they are immediately countered and end up worsening their own situation. For example, after the EU’s illegal tariffs were declared on China’s very successful EV sector, Global Times published what IMO is a “You don’t matter” response touting the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP):

The Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP), the world's largest free trade agreement (FTA), has promoted broader, higher-level and deeper regional cooperation and openness, while bolstering confidence in shoring up the global economic recovery after its full implementation for one year, China's Ministry of Commerce (MOFCOM) said on Thursday.

The RCEP is the world's largest FTA in terms of population and economic scale, and a milestone for economic integration in the Asia-Pacific region, He Yadong, spokesperson of MOFCOM, said at a regular press briefing on Thursday.

The implementation of the RCEP revitalized regional economic growth. In 2023, trade within the RCEP region rose to $5.6 trillion, slightly surpassing the level of 2021, the year before the agreement took effect.

The trade pact has enhanced industry and supply chain cooperation within member countries. The region also attracted $234.1 billion in greenfield investments in 2023, a surge of 29.8 percent year-on-year. That figure was also 2.2 times that of 2021.  

The RCEP has also bolstered China's high-level opening-up, according to He.

For example, China's trade with the other 14 RCEP members grew 5.3 percent from 2021 to 12.6 trillion yuan ($1.77 trillion) in 2023. Investment cooperation also heated up, with China's non-financial direct investment inflows into RCEP countries climbing 26 percent year-on-year to $18.06 billion in 2023, outperforming China's global average growth rate in investment by 14 percentage points. 

China will leverage its co-chair role in the RCEP this year to lead the high-quality implementation of the trade pact and boost the agreement's regional impact, according to He. 

Domestically, the MOFCOM will continue to support enterprises in utilizing the RCEP and other FTA preferential policies. "We have released 28 practices for high-quality RCEP implementation, focusing on strengthening top design, facilitating goods trade, promoting services trade and investment cooperation, as well as creating a good business environment. These practices serve as a reference for local use to enhance agreement utilization effect and benefit enterprises," He said.

The first year of the RCEP has shown it delivers immediate economic benefits and lays a solid foundation for regional integration. While initial results are promising, its long-term potential could be even greater and a gradual process, Xiang Haoyu, a research fellow at the China Institute of International Studies, told the Global Times on Thursday. 

It also lays a solid foundation for regional economic integration, showcasing the importance of free trade and multilateralism in boosting the global economic recovery and global growth.

 "Amid global economic challenges from the pandemic and geopolitical crises, the RCEP has become a stabilizer of the Asia-Pacific and global economies, not only enhancing the resilience of the Asia-Pacific but also countering unilateralism and protectionism," Xiang noted.

"To maximize the RCEP's benefits, it is essential to further reduce tariffs, eliminate non-tariff barriers and harmonize trade rules. Streamlining customs procedures, liberalizing investments, improving the digital infrastructure and ensuring secure data flows are also critical. Strengthening cooperation in e-commerce, smart cities, big data and cloud computing will foster a more inclusive and sustainable regional framework," Xiang said. [My Emphasis]

With the way the global market’s expanding, the EU better be careful it doesn’t build its own high walls that suffocates its economies as its already done with Russia. The current geoeconomic balance has inverted from what it was 25 years ago somewhat similarly to what’s happened geopolitically. That reality’s exemplified by the G-7 meeting that’s happening today—when the non-productive economic rents that are the main part of Neoliberal economies are subtracted and added as overhead costs to GDP, the G-7 nations combined GDPs are less than those of Russia & China, for the latter are very powerful industrial economies promoting People Centered Development as opposed to Neoliberal divestment and deindustrialization. In other words, the G-7 has relevance only to itself.

Now we can return to science and the visit that began this article and the discussion that follows will go well beyond physics and while long is very revealing:

Vladimir Putin: Dear friends and colleagues, Good afternoon!

I am now happy to see what has been done here.

In 2011, we decided to start this project, and in general it is developing successfully. It is developing successfully, including thanks to the interaction of fellow scientists from almost all over the world.

Unfortunately, due to well-known circumstances, there were failures. But we manage to cope with these failures, despite the fact that the project is slightly "shifted to the right". But, as I have just been told, all fundamental issues are being resolved. Unfortunately, our partners are also making even more progress than we are. Why unfortunately? Because it means that in general, if we join forces, we could act more effectively.

But I am sure that sooner or later all political difficulties will be overcome, science will not stand still under any circumstances, and development will be ensured.

What is pleasant to note, as your colleague told me just now: when they set tasks for our enterprises, for research centers – to develop something that we previously received from our partners from abroad-our manufacturers cope with all these works, there is practically not a single failure. But, I repeat once again, I am confident that cooperation will be restored, it will be restored, and we will work together.

I know that there are people here who participate in the mega-grant program, and we have met many of you many times in different settings, but the same thing has always been in our field of vision – the development of Russian science and the development of Russian science as part of world science.

I am pleased to note that this work is progressing, the work is going according to plan. We adjust this work in accordance with your recommendations, which we certainly listen to and intend to listen to in the future.

I would like to thank you for this joint work and express the hope that it brings you satisfaction, because for creative people, the most important thing is a process that benefits the development of world science and knowledge.

The NICA project, which we are talking about and which we are implementing, is precisely connected with this – namely, with the knowledge of how the universe came to be, how it developed. At first glance, this does not seem to have a practical result today, it does not seem to be an applied field of research. Nevertheless, within the perimeter of what is happening, there is work on microelectronics, biology, and a number of other areas. Already today, this is beginning to bring concrete results for the Russian economy and for Russian science, applied science, and for the areas of activity that are so necessary for people, first of all, of course, in the humanitarian sphere, including in the field of medicine.

I am sure that this will also benefit our partners who work here and come from other countries, because in one way or another, these results will also benefit the countries from which they came. Because we don't lock anything up, we don't hide anything. We are open to cooperation, to use the achievements that appear thanks to your work. We are open to using the results of your work not only in Russia, but also in other countries.

I don't want to take up your time here. I would like to hear your recommendations on what we should do and how we should do it in order, first, to continue our work and, secondly, to make it even more effective.

Let's get started. Please, please.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich,

Good afternoon, dear friends!

It seems to me that no other introduction is needed, the President has said everything. Let's start with the winners of the Megagrant Lab competition.

This is a unique program that has been running for more than 10 years. During this time, 345 laboratories were created in 150 organizations. 135 countries participate in this program, and 186 scientists representing foreign laboratories have organized successful research here in the Russian Federation. More than 10 thousand publications. Another figure makes a huge impression on me: almost one and a half thousand dissertations are protected thanks to this program.

If you'll excuse me, let's get started. Alexey Vitalievich Kavokin, who now represents a laboratory at St. Petersburg State University, is the creator of a new type of laser – the boson cascade laser for telecommunications in medicine. Worked in the UK for a long time.

Alexey Vitalievich, please.

Alexander Kavokin: Thank you very much.

Hello, Vladimir Vladimirovich!

I'm a second-wave megagrantnik. Indeed, in 2011 I came from Great Britain to St. Petersburg, St. Petersburg State University. My colleagues and I have built a Spin Optics Laboratory there, where we study polaritonics.

Vladimir Putin: What, again?

A. Kavokin: Polaritonics.

Vladimir Putin: For my untrained ear, this is not so easy to perceive everything.

A. Kavokin: A more visual term is liquid light. A light that spreads everywhere. It begins to behave like a liquid in crystal structures, in a certain geometry: it forms drops, eddies. We learn how to manage it. Based on this "liquid light," we have made a really new generation of lasers – polariton lasers, and now we have joined the "road map" for quantum computing and are making neural networks, even making quantum transistors (qubits) for future quantum computers.

Looking at all this history (after all, 13 years have passed), I want to say that of all the tools for financing science that I know of, the mega-grant program, in my opinion, was and remains the most effective. Why?

Look, in 2011, 150 million rubles were invested in our laboratory, mega-grants. This was the impetus that not only created a laboratory that now employs more than 40 people, and some of them have already received a State Prize, but this laboratory, as such an icebreaker, cleared the way for many others.

In 2014, a polaritonics group was formed at the Russian Quantum Center. In 2016, my English colleague Pavlos Lagoudakis came to Skoltech and built a beautiful laboratory there. In 2018, we were already invited to China by our Chinese colleagues, who liked it all, and we built an international polaritonics center in Hangzhou. In general, such a cluster of scientific groups and laboratories has already emerged, and, most importantly, a scientific school has emerged, which now occupies, I am not afraid of this word, a leading position in the world.

We welcome young people from all over the world, including unfriendly countries. It seems to me that this paid off the initial investment many times over. So if I wanted to wish something to our mega-grant program, I would like to wish it to grow in size somehow.

In the early years, 30-40 laboratories were created every year. This year, as far as I know, eight. However, each received more funding. Andrey Alexandrovich always explains to us that the amount of money is limited. But it seems to me that there is a way out of this situation.

My colleagues and I just discussed before this meeting that, first of all, this is the most effective mechanism, at least from my personal point of view. Why not shift part of the funding, say, that goes through the state task to the same science and is not always spent as efficiently, to the mega-grant program? One option.

In addition, I am absolutely sure that many representatives of our business would be happy to associate their name with such a prestigious and useful program for the state. Why not open it to private sponsors? Perhaps they would allow us to fill this budget, and we would be able to create 40 or 50 laboratories every year instead of eight, and, in addition, support existing scientific schools that have grown out of mega-grant laboratories.

Thank you for your time.

Vladimir Putin: You know, when people remember St. Petersburg State University, I always say with pleasure that I am also a graduate of this university and, moreover, I worked at the university as an assistant to the rector. And I can imagine how it all works.

Where exactly is your lab located?

A. Kavokin: In Peterhof, at the Faculty of Physics.

Vladimir Putin: In Peterhof. It's clear. Good location.

As for mega-grants, it has already been said that after we launched this work ... Andrey Aleksandrovich, since what year? Since 2010? We started this work in 2010, and it really brought very good results.

To be honest, when everything that happens is good, one way or another, my colleagues, they are modest people, always say: this is what you started, you did. They actually suggested it, and I just didn't stop them from doing it. The author is Andrey Aleksandrovich Fursenko. And indeed, this program has turned out well: 345 laboratories, in my opinion, are developing in 37 or 39 regions of the Russian Federation.

This idea of enlarging these programs also belongs to him, not to me. So the pros and cons are all there, in such cases, to the author, he is the author. But maybe there is some sense in this, in the enlargement. Now I won't go into details, we already understand everything that is being discussed.

But what decisions have we made? You probably know this too: it was decided to increase the amount of funding to 100 million a year and extend the deadline, because, as far as I understand, I think we also met with you and some other colleagues to see the planning horizon. The solution is to increase it to 100 million and increase this work from three to five years, with the right to extend it for another three years. I know that this may not be enough for some areas of research, but I do not rule out that we can expand this horizon. This is the first one.

Second. As for joining forces, say, through the Government. Anyway, this is all through the Government – money is allocated from the budget. But don't let your colleagues be offended, there is still some jealousy and competition between the Scientific Research Foundation, the Russian Science Foundation, and the Ministry. Don't let your colleagues be offended, but it's true. The question always arises: where will the money go? Where will it be funded from? Because in the end, this is a result that-let the bureaucrats forgive me-can somehow be considered the result of their own work. But in general, we will solve this issue: where and what to combine and in what direction to direct this research.

The main thing is that certain resources should be allocated to this area of activity. You can, of course, attract private funding, and these are primarily such serious and large companies that invest mainly in applied research areas that they can use. But not only that.

We agreed a few years ago that our large companies will invest resources even in research that does not bring quick returns, and they do so. Here, too, it is possible to re-target them to a certain extent, redirect them, and agree on their co-financing.

But if they see the possibility of obtaining results for some applied areas, then this can dramatically increase the level of their participation in this activity. Therefore, as the first step, I said, is to increase the term, increase the volume, and the possibility of extension. By the way, I think there are 15 million young researchers, and we are also extending the term of these programs for four years. So in general, we will continue to do what you suggest. I wish you every success.

Thank you.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

I would now like to give the floor to Irina Nikolaevna Isakova-Sivak, representative of the Almaz Center, one of our best medical centers in the country. You worked for a long time in Atlanta ([USA, state] Georgia) and now you are engaged in very interesting research, which is also of an applied nature, going into specific vaccines and specific pharmaceutical products. You work in the field of immunology and prevention of viral diseases.

Please, Irina Nikolaevna, you have the floor.

Irina Isakova-Sivak: Thank you very much, Grigory Vladimirovich.

Good afternoon, Vladimir Vladimirovich!

I have to make a small remark that after all, we do not work at the Almaz Center, but at the Institute of Experimental Medicine in St. Petersburg, which is known thanks to our Academician Pavlov.

Our main development is a combined-action intranasal vaccine. Specifically, currently these are actual infections – flu and coronavirus infection, combining in one drug. Intranasally, that is, a painless method of administration that forms all the links of immunity.

All this development was made possible thanks to the support of the Russian Science Foundation, specifically the presidential program of the Russian Science Foundation. The whole project probably developed according to the classical scheme, that we developed a concept within such a small youth research group: how to design vaccines, where to build what so that you can get such combined drugs.

Already at the next stage, with the assistance of our commercial technology partner, the biotechnological company Biocad (I think a well-known company)[Russian Biotech company], we have already received support from world-class laboratories for our own development of such a vaccine, just as the coronavirus pandemic began.

What is important to say? That we are not just developing the drug as such (many people develop different drugs), but we are also developing the production technology. After all, we know that all flu vaccines, for example, are now produced on chicken embryos. There may be problems with the supply of hatching eggs, as it was last year, and in principle in anticipation of a pandemic.

Vladimir Putin: They ate everything.

I. Isakova-Sivak: Either they ate everything, or the bird flu came, for example.

Vladimir Putin: We've eaten everything, and we haven't even had enough yet.

Irina Isakova-Sivak: We also have the problem of avian flu. When it comes, the whole bird will be burned. And where do we get the embryos from? Therefore, of course, it is very important to develop a technology for the production of vaccines on cell cultures. In this case, it is our partner Biocad that is currently developing this technology at its production sites for the production of our specific vaccine. But here again, it is important to say that within the framework of this grant, world-class laboratories, of course, it is impossible to bring all the development already to sales.

My question or suggestion is as follows. This suggests the next line of grants, namely technological ones. That is, we are developing something here, and there is also a technology company to support our business. After all, the technology that will be developed can also be used for government purposes. After all, not only specifically for our development, but also it is possible to produce vaccines against other infections, ordered by the state.

Vladimir Putin: Do you make an allergy vaccine? Or not?

I. Isakova-Sivak: I think that it is quite possible: to make a vaccine against allergies and against any infections, including against other pathogens and allergens.

If the state suddenly develops some new targeted high-tech programs to support such industries, then, of course, it is necessary to use the resources of the Russian Science Foundation as a bulwark of scientific expertise. The pool of experts that is currently formed in the Russian Science Foundation, I think, will provide the most objective examination of any scientific projects. With the use of this system, of course, the efficiency of implementing such already high-tech new programs will be much higher.

Thanks for attention.

Vladimir Putin: In particular, do you mean those projects that did not receive funding, did not win contests that were put on pause? Are these meant?

Irina Isakova-Sivak: For example, our grant for world-class laboratories is now coming to an end. We have a prototype, and then the company will use its own resources to conduct clinical trials.

Vladimir Putin: Yes, that's how she'll do it, thank God. God bless you, what do you need from us?

I. Isakova-Sivak: Some support.

Vladimir Putin: What is it?

I. Isakova-Sivak: Financial.

Vladimir Putin: So do they do it or do we do it? Who finances, who gives money? Do they give or do we? Or do we give money, they seem to be standing next to each other? What exactly?

We need to formulate it. Be sure to talk to Andrey Alexandrovich.

I. Isakova-Sivak: I think it was some kind of line of Ministry of Industry and Trade production grants.

Vladimir Putin: Yes, I get it. You're right. I now understand what you're talking about. Good, good. We will definitely work this out. The company stands nearby, it starts to finance. Here you need to find support tools for such companies.

I. Isakova-Sivak: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: We will definitely think about it. I understood.

You're right, there's really a lot to work on there. We have a lot of tools to support various areas of production. There you can definitely find some areas of activity among these tools that are prepared for the Ministry of Industry and Trade. We'll definitely talk to you.

Irina Isakova-Sivak: Thank you very much.

Vladimir Putin: Thank you for drawing your attention to this. Yes, Dmitry Nikolaevich, you should definitely take a look.

Dmitry Chernyshenko: Industrial Development Fund.

Vladimir Putin: Yes, yes, yes, that's what I mean. There are a lot of them and the funds are decent. We are now supporting this fund and will recapitalize it.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

If I may, let's move on to the next speaker – Vladimir Nikolaevich Ivanchenko. He now represents Tomsk State University. For a long time, he worked at CERN, in the experiment on a compact muon solenoid, and now at Tomsk State University he develops software for modeling artificial intelligence and machine learning in large Russian megascience installations.

You are welcome.

V. Ivanchenko: For many years, my colleagues and I have worked in international projects and made a decent contribution there. Now the situation is changing, and our goal is to find our place in Russian projects.

We assume in our application that this is not only the work of laboratories within Tomsk University, not only the training of students at the university, but also the application at NICA, the application of our modeling tools for space, the application of our modeling tools in medicine. We want to focus on consumers of such products within Russia. This is computer software for both science and engineering.

The project is interesting, but, unfortunately, it took the ninth place in this competition. I think that, of course, the idea of mega-grants is great, but probably, at least in my opinion, such a bias to a small number of projects creates some difficulties.

Thanks for attention.

Vladimir Putin: I understand what you're talking about.

First thing I'd like to say. As you can understand, it goes without saying that we are interested in the fact that those specialists who worked somewhere, Russian researchers who worked somewhere in foreign centers, are released for various reasons. Of course, we want people like you, great specialists here, to not just find themselves, but to work in the interests of developing science and production in the country. This is a task. This is a task in itself. This is the first one.

Second. Of course, reducing the number of grants even with increasing the volume of their funding has disadvantages, I understand. Those projects that were not included in the list of winners, however, we also try not to lose, to raise. In my opinion, at least two projects still received support and will receive it.

But nevertheless, there is a problem, we will definitely think about it and, perhaps, compare just the suggestions that our colleague made, look at other sources and try not to ignore it.

I am aware that just working on the site of Tomsk State University is also not bad: this is a good educational institution, where both laboratories work and specialists work well. But there are some targeted things that you need to pay special attention to. I understand, and we will try to do it.

I ask the minister who is present here, the Deputy Prime Minister, and my assistant to take a look at this. We'll definitely see, okay?

Grigory Trubnikov: Thank you, Mr President.

Our colleagues have already spoken about the success of the presidential program of the Russian Popular Front, which was launched in 2017 with your support. But in 2016, at a similar meeting with scientists, you were approached with an initiative by megagranters, including those who needed to continue the project, because they really reached a very interesting and productive phase in their research, and it was simply wrong to stop it and even, perhaps, with something to combine, but it was necessary to give a new life. This presidential program of the Russian Science Foundation is really effective, it really works.

I will say for our community that in just a few years of work, since 2017, we have almost 27 thousand applications, of which 6.5 thousand are winners. That means the competition is one in five. That is, this program is really very popular, and it is in demand. There are several lines there: there is a laboratory for young scientists, larger laboratories, including research that is already moving from fundamental to exploratory in nature. It really works.

I still think it is important to emphasize, for my part, also as a scientist working and participating in grant programs. When they say that our funding for science may be insufficient, but in fact it is good and sufficient. This program alone has received funding of more than 60 billion rubles, almost 600 organizations and almost 30 thousand scientists. And productivity, too, as I mentioned about mega-grants – there are 37,000 publications here in just six years, of which almost 14,000 were published in the first quarter. This is generally healthy; this is a really good program.

Vladimir Putin: We understand that this is not enough. We understand that.

Grigory Trubnikov: Thank you, Mr President.

Vladimir Putin: We understand that this is too small. How much? We want to get out by 2 percent, right?

A. Fursenko: To reach two percent. We said that science should increase by 2 percent. And part of this could be directed, this is also a small part of the funding for science, and grant funding should be increased proportionally, which shows efficiency.

Vladimir Putin: Yes.

Why am I even saying this? To make it clear to everyone gathered here that we understand that this is not enough, and we will strive to increase these volumes. That's for sure.

And what you said, 60 billion and so on – all this is correct, but we understand that this is not enough, we are well aware of this. But it's also good that we understand that, isn't it? This is already good. The President of the Academy of Sciences nods his head and shows me: "Give me the money." We will work on it.

Mr Trubnikov: Mr President, thank you.

You know, I would say that your presence here and the launch of a huge, grandiose project, which was carried out by the whole country, is a good confirmation that science in Russia is a priority, especially fundamental science.

Vladimir Putin: Do you mean NICA?

G. Trubnikov: Yes.

Vladimir Putin: Yes, it is a point of pride. I am sure that we will see this through to the end, and it will work properly.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

In this part of our meeting, there is another speaker – Anna Vladimirovna Paterova, South Ural University, Laboratory of Quantum Interferometry. You can tell me better what you do, what research you do, and what your results are.

I would like to say that Anna Vladimirovna worked for a long time at a Research institute in Singapore, and now the laboratory at South Ural University is working very successfully under your leadership.

Vladimir Putin: Singapore is very hot. You feel much more comfortable in the Urals, right?

A. Paterova: Yes, I have already felt it.

Good afternoon, Vladimir Vladimirovich.

It's a great honor for me to be here today. I am a senior research fellow at the Institute of Materials Research and Engineering in Singapore, where I work in quantum optics.

Vladimir Putin: One more time.

A. Paterova: I do quantum optics, research on quantum optics.

I'll probably tell you a little bit about myself. I'm from Chuvashia myself. My professional career began in 2008 when I entered the Physics Department of the Lomonosov Moscow State University.

In 2011, I became interested in quantum optics and joined the Department of Quantum Electronics, where I defended my thesis on "Biphoton field spectrum control" in the laboratory of Sergey Pavlovich Kulik.

Then, in 2014, I entered graduate school in Singapore at Nanyang Technological University, where I continued my research on quantum optics and their applications.

In 2018, I defended my dissertation on "Infrared spectroscopy using visible light", then worked as a researcher at the Institute for Materials Research and Engineering, where I continued my research on quantum interferometry.

At the moment, my research interests are focused on quantum technologies and applications in sensors. These areas are the subject of applications for mega-grants for young scientists in cooperation with South Ural State University in Chelyabinsk.

I would like to say that a good group has been formed at the University of Chelyabinsk on the basis of a large megagrant, where research is conducted in all areas of quantum technologies, including quantum computing, communications and sensors.

My work will be aimed at overcoming the limitations of classical infrared spectroscopy by using quantum technologies, namely non-classical light.

I would like to note that this direction, this cycle of research continues the direction of quantum interferometry, which was once formed at the Faculty of Physics of the Moscow State University School of Quantum Optics by David Nikolaevich Klyshko. In the work of the school of quantum optics at that time, theoretical foundations were developed and the first experiments in this direction were made. You were told about this during your visit to Moscow State University in 2002.

Due to the significant contribution and time that has been devoted to this area, there are currently promising results that allow this area to develop into applications that include gas leak detection and the study of biomaterials and biotissues.

Vladimir Putin: Research on biomaterials?

A. Paterova: And biological tissues. That is, the study of biomaterials.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I hope that my experience and skills will contribute to the development of Russian science and economy. I would also like to thank you for introducing young scientists to the mega-grant competition. I think this is a proper, original initiative and very timely.

I would like to wish this program for young scientists to be developed in the future and expanded if possible, as I personally know well-established scientists who are actively working or thinking about returning to Russia. Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: As for young researchers, we pay constant, close attention to this. The number of researchers of such a young age, say, somewhere up to 35 years, we already have, how many percent now, Andrey Aleksandrovich? Somewhere, in my opinion, under 60 percent?

A. Fursenko: In different ways. Today, up to 39 years, in my opinion, almost half.

Vladimir Putin: No more, 60-plus percent.

A. Fursenko: No, it is less than the total number of scientists. Another thing is that those who receive mega-grants…

Vladimir Putin: No, I meant the total number.

A. Fursenko: The total is less than 50. But this is how it should be, because after all, people play a very important role in our country…

Vladimir Putin: Okay, well, let's not argue. But in any case, we are paying attention to this and will continue to do so.

I have already mentioned that the new project is based on mega-grants for four years and 15 million for a year. The age of the researcher, in my opinion, should be up to 35 years. But these four years also need to be expanded, of course, and the amount of funding, too. We will certainly do this. It's like the first step.

I remember that it was a proposal, including some of those present here. We met a few years ago, it was in the Kremlin, in Moscow. The recipients of mega-grants just then said to me: "Please note that we have created laboratories, many interesting young specialists have come, and we need to continue this work for their sake." It wasn't my idea, I must admit. It was invented by scientists – recipients of mega-grants, who created 345 laboratories across the country. That is why we responded to their suggestion and idea. It was absolutely in demand. We will definitely continue to do this, absolutely, 100 percent. There can be no doubt about it.

As for your research. You got this grant, right? You got a research grant, right?

A. Paterova: What did you get?

Vladimir Putin: Have you received a grant?

A. Paterova: Yes, I received a grant, so far for two years, and with the possibility of continuing for another two years.

Vladimir Putin: Understood.

This work is highly demanded, it is of practical importance, some companies are actively developing in our country, which would seem to be far from scientific research, but nevertheless Russian Railways is developing this area and is planning to use it, and they are already trying to use it, and it will be so for sure. Bearing in mind the prospects of these studies, we will definitely invest in it.

You probably know that there are other considerations, that we need to move on to the next stage of what quantum research of this kind provides. This is something that is currently in demand, and we will definitely do it.

In general, without any doubt, we will try to support young researchers, starting from the senior courses of universities and higher education institutions, and so on, and the postgraduate part there, and so on. In general, there can be no doubt about it.

As for what you received for two years, it is not clear why for two years, if the program is designed for four. So, absolutely sure, you can be sure to work safely: four years are guaranteed.

A. Paterova: Thank you.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

If you don't mind, we'll move on to the next block of performances. A few short presentations from our Russian scientists who work in various organizations and work on large megaprojects.

Vladimir Putin: Of course, you're welcome.

G. Trubnikov: I would like to ask Maria Alexandrovna Gusarova, the representative of MEPhI, to speak.

Please, Maria Alexandrovna.

Maria Gusarova: Hello, Mr President!

I teach at the Department of Electrophysical Installations at MEPhI. Our department has been training specialists in the field of accelerator technology for 76 years. Historically, our work is associated with the creation of small application accelerators and with large scientific installations: both Russian and international.

Tools for supporting research groups are very important for us. We can see how much the federal program for creating youth laboratories in priority areas is in demand now. This year, at the initiative of our Minister of Education and Science, another very successful program was launched to support work at NICA. MEPhI is an active participant.

This program brought together several hundred participants from a dozen and a half institutes and universities in just three months. It seems to me that such a program would be very useful for all our mega-science installations that are currently being built in Russia-SKIF in Novosibirsk, Kurchatov synchrotrons, and reactors.

Previously, we took an active part in the Government of the Russian Federation's programs for work on foreign installations – in Germany, CERN, and Japan. It was a great experience, contacts, and a lot of joint publications. Now there are fewer such programs. And I think, as you said in your speech, that our mega-science projects should be open and attractive not only for Russian scientists, but also for our foreign partners and colleagues. After all, in my opinion, this is a very important reputation component for Russia as the world's leading scientific power.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, do you think it is possible to extend all these programs to all our mega-science installations? This, first of all.

Secondly, it is very important that strong teams from different departments can participate on a competitive basis without fail and receive this support. And ideally, maybe restart competitions for bilateral and multilateral programs with our foreign partners? After all, we have very strong collaborators in the BRICS countries, in friendly countries, so that in general our state program has a strong international component. After all, such tools (Grigory Vladimirovich spoke a lot about the Russian Science Foundation), such mechanisms are available in the Russian Science Foundation and in the presidential program, which was launched with your support.

Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: First of all, as far as international cooperation is concerned. We just talked about this with a colleague. Yes, we understand and see what is happening now in the world and in the scientific world. Unfortunately, politics affects all spheres of activity, including art – they are trying to abolish Russian culture, as we know-and scientific activities. But all the same, smart people understand and our partners understand that this does not bring anything good either in the field of culture or in the field of scientific cooperation. And no one loses their desire to work with Russia or come here, or invite our specialists in all fields, including in the scientific sphere. We just know it.

And there are countries that have never interrupted any relations with us and who also have the desire, opportunities, and interest to continue cooperation. You need to work on all vectors. There is no doubt about it. And this partnership will continue. You are right, of course, this area of activity needs to be supported. That's what we're trying to do.

Now, as for the various tools. After all, when they were created, both through the Russian Science Foundation and the Government, all this is being created in order to create conditions, create opportunities, and find sources of funding for the most promising research.

As for megascience installations and everything related to them, including everything that is of practical importance in all areas, this is, of course, one of the priority areas. This is quite obvious.

You mentioned where we are creating-in the Far East, in Novosibirsk, and here in the European part. "A" – we need to combine all this, of course, and "b" – we need to combine these efforts in terms of tools. So, of course, I will ask the Government and the Administration, if we see any niches that are outside the scope of these support tools, we just need to join forces both on the part of the Government and on the part of the Russian Science Foundation. We will definitely do so. We have heard you, we will think about it and try to make sure that no one is caught "between the rain", so that this gracious "rain" of support also extends to you.

Maria Gusarova: Thank you very much.

Vladimir Putin: Thank you.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

I will ask Vasilisa Viktorovna Lenivenko, a representative of the experimental program "Baryonic Matter on the Nuclotron", to speak. Vasilisa, please have the floor.

Vladimir Lenivenko: Hello.

I am a researcher at the JINR Laboratory of High-Energy Physics, where we are now. I am engaged in processing and analyzing experimental data from the first active experiment of the NICA complex, which studies baryonic matter on a fixed target. These are interesting scientific tasks, a well-developed research infrastructure, and, most importantly, people, our international team. That's probably why I've been working here for nine years.

I also have experience working for the European organization for research on nuclear reactions – CERN, where there were also interesting tasks, as well as very comfortable procedures for issuing visas and residence permits of the state where this organization is based (Switzerland), and it is very loyal to this when compared with the difficulties that are being faced. My fellow scientists who would like to work in Russia have some questions. It seems that we can't do without your support here, as we are interested in attracting talents from all over the world.

Thanks to government support for the creation of large research centers, there are already magnets for such talents. JINR, which is an international intergovernmental organization, has always been and remains a place of attraction for scientists and specialists from all over the world. Fortunately, a lot of research spaces are being created now: this is both the Kurchatov Institute and Novosibirsk.

Active interaction requires greater mobility among scientists, and often colleagues who come to work in Russia face bureaucratic difficulties when applying for visas to our country.

Is it possible to consider simplifying the visa mechanism for those foreign scientists who come to work in the Russian Federation? Thank you.

Vladimir Putin: As for bureaucratic difficulties, there are enough of them everywhere.

As for our specialists who come to some countries, such barriers are being erected and difficulties are being created that we have never seen before, and we thought that this is simply impossible in democratic countries, but nevertheless it is happening. This is a bad example, and we are just interested in having specialists come to us from all over the world without any problems.

Unfortunately, we still have these problems here, and we will definitely work on this – I know what we are talking about. It's not just about processing visa documents, it's also about insurance, it's about all sorts of bureaucratic procedures related to health and so on and so forth.

Just today in Moscow, we will have another meeting on migration policy. Of course, we are interested in attracting high-level, high-class specialists and simply highly qualified workers. And even more so people of high qualification in the literal sense of the word – with a good education, people who are engaged in science. We will definitely do all this. The problem should be solved not only at the federal level,but also at the regional level. We need to create good living conditions for those people who come and want to work.

In some countries they do, I know that. In some countries, for various reasons, even unrelated to the current foreign policy situation, they simply did not make decisions and stop research in the nuclear field. They just stop: they close nuclear power plants, they do a lot of stupid things. Specialists in these fields simply have nowhere to go, and they would be happy to come to us, but we need to create conditions for this. And we will certainly do it. It seemed to me that somehow we were going down this path. But if you pay attention to it, then you see that something is missing. Thank you for mentioning this. We will definitely work.

G. Trubnikov: Thank you.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, can we have a few more short speeches?

Vladimir Putin: I have an international conversation in five minutes. But we still have five minutes. You are welcome.

G. Trubnikov: All right. Then I ask Alexander Blagov, a representative of the Kurchatov Institute, who is responsible for the synchrotron research program and is currently creating several installations on the territory of our country, to speak.

Please, Alexander Yevgenyevich.

Alexander Blagov: Thank you, Grigory Vladimirovich.

Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich,

Can I stand up?

Vladimir Putin: Let's do it sitting down. Otherwise, you'll be the first person to do it standing up. It's kind of immodest. You are welcome.

Alexander Blagov: Dear Mr President,

Thanks to your solutions, thanks to your support, we have been developing and restoring the mega-science class infrastructure for many years, since the 2000s, which is, in fact, the main one for breakthrough scientific results and the formation of our fundamentally new scientific foundation and landscape.

Throughout this time, we have been involved in all international projects, especially in European ones, in key roles. But now almost all European mega-science projects have stopped working together. But at the same time, nothing prevents us from working with our friendly countries.

This year, in fact, a very important document was approved by the Supreme State Council of the Union State, and the Strategy for Scientific and Technological Development of the Union State was adopted. It is based on the construction of a single scientific and technological space between the two countries, also using megascience-class installations. Such mechanisms of interstate integration can and should, in fact, be extended to the CIS and BRICS countries.

Now an International Association of Scientific organizations has been created on the basis of the Kurchatov Institute, it is called the "Center for Synchrotron, Neutron and Laser Research", and it has already included scientific organizations from Russia, the Republic of Belarus, Uzbekistan, and Iran. Agreements were also reached on the inclusion of Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research, an international organization.

Here we propose to consolidate these processes at the interstate level and announce the initiative of the Russian Federation to build and create a single scientific and technological space within, first of all, the CIS and BRICS. As a first step, we will organize an international synchrotron or megascience center, which will develop a research program that will connect and unite not only our megascience projects, but also our partner countries.

Vladimir Putin: That's what we're going to do.

Yesterday, Mikhail Valentinovich and I were on our feet, as they say, talking about this. This is exactly in line with both our interests and those of our partners. Someone at the government level puts up some barriers, but at the level of relations between interested specialists, contacts continue. I'm not even talking about the BRICS countries, for example. Everything is generally open there and there is a great interest in working together. This is exactly what we will do by joining forces within the country with regard to mega-science programs that bring synergy, and with regard to our closest neighbors within the BRICS, and we will do it more broadly.

We will work with anyone who wants to. And given the fact that our capabilities are increasing with the launch of relevant installations throughout the country, the interest in working together will not only remain, but will grow-there is no doubt about it, and we will support this. Mikhail Valentinovich and I talked about this yesterday.

Vladimir Blagov: In my opinion, this is another very important question, a short one. It is connected with the development of a modern world-class social infrastructure around the created installations. This will allow us to fully develop that potential.

Vladimir Putin: I understood. That's what we'll do, we agreed on everything yesterday.

Please, the final one. I ask you to.

Alexey Sadovnikov: Thank you very much, Vladimir Vladimirovich!

I have a little comment. The fact that in science, I was just the first wave of mega-grants, then went to work in Germany, and then, when he was the presidential program of the RSF, I returned to Russia. And so it turned out that in 2023 we have already completed, I as the head of the megagrant at the Far Eastern University.

My name is Alexander Sadovnikov and I'm from the Saratov National Research University. In addition to my colleagues, I would like to say that it is very important to keep the megagrant laboratories that were created operating, to think through the moment that Alexey mentioned, with some funding from the university to maintain the most resilient, most powerful laboratories. It is very important to give the unique scientific facilities created for that money to megagrants, and in Saratov such a facility has been created, it operates, and it is the only one in Russia – the Mandelstam-Brillouin spectroscopy facility. It will be very cool to integrate the experience of regional scientific schools and unique research facilities into this Megasience program, because we have also been left without synchrotron capabilities, but now it will be much more efficient to do this in the country.

At the same time, it would be great to consider, perhaps, all together, combining the most powerful, most advanced Russian teams aimed at solving mega – tasks-creating a new computer based on quantum principles, alternative electronics, and microelectronics, as we also discussed before meeting you today.

In my opinion, the greatest value of megagrant programs is the created resource as installations. It attracts young people, as it attracted me in my time, to stay in this direction. Because nowhere else in the world is there such a tool base as now in those universities where the mega-grant program was implemented. Thank you very much.

Vladimir Putin: First of all, I would like to say. I want to thank you for working here.

Second. I want to congratulate you on your results.

The third. In fact, I have no choice but to draw the attention of my colleagues from the Presidential Administration and the Government to what you have just said. Funds invested, results obtained. It should not just remain at that level-good, even if high – and slowly, sorry, wither away. On the contrary, it should be used as a springboard for further development. We will try to do so. I ask my colleagues to pay attention to this.

Thank you all very much. I would like to wish you every success and thank you for today's meeting. [My Emphasis]

The last paragraph is critical for it reflects what the Outlaw US Empire failed to do at the end of the Apollo Project and related funding for the National Science Foundation and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. During the oughts, I had several interactions with people from both organizations and learned a lot about what might have been if the funding level had continued. What happened was much funding was transferred to DARPA which has produced essentially nothing of value. A Gym supporter was a researcher at Bell Labs and has told me a few of his tales of woe. As you read, Putin gets it. And as a scientist, what would you rather have: a high salary or bountiful funding for your projects? Putin’s comment about bureaucrats and bureaucracies was classic Putin as he’s been pleading with the Duma for his entire career to get rid of the useless red tape that impedes progress, not just for business but to allow Russia to function better as a nation. Extending the same sort of collaboration that exists with the Union State to BRICS+ creates another powerful synergy the West will quickly become jealous over. Yes, Russia will do it.

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