Lavrov's Interview with the Indonesian Newspaper Compass, July 11, 2023

Prior to leaving Moscow to attend the ASEAN ministerial meetings in Jakarta, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov gave a long, detailed interview with the Compass publication. For those who’ve never had the pleasure of reading one of these transcripts, you’ll find Lavrov to be very detailed and precise in his descriptions and use of language. There’re certain to be some readers who have never heard the full explanation for the Ukraine crisis from Russia’s perspective and that’s what you’ll get to read first as Lavrov explains to the Indonesian audience its basics. Next, readers will get an education as to the breadth and extent of Russia’s relations with Indonesia and the ASEAN along with an explanation of Russian policy toward Myanmar. The fact that Russia has a large Muslim population that comfortably resides within Russia as opposed to the conditions of Muslims within Western nations gives it a crucial advantage in conducting relations with the entire Islamic world. Lavrov’s explanation of how Russia conducts its relations with Indonesia is what is said to all nations Russia has friendly relations with, and you’ll note the grounds that provide the basics for those relations. Lavrov also informs his audience where Russia and the West differ in their diplomatic approach. And most importantly, Lavrov explains Russia’s view that what’s occurring isn’t a “new cold war” but then formation of a new Multipolar World Order of which Indonesia and ASEAN will play a vital role. Yes, Lavrov is a very busy man. Kissinger was feted for his “Shuttle Diplomacy,” but in my estimation Lavrov has bested him in that regard. He’s now in Jakarta having already held meetings with ASEAN members, the results of which will likely form the basis for another article. Now, Lavrov’s interview which will have a few translation quirks I left intact.

Question: If the war in Ukraine continues, what will happen next? What will Russia do?

Sergey Lavrov: I think that the answer to your question should begin by explaining the root causes of the events in Ukraine. Very often we hear that the conflict allegedly began in February 2022 with the "unprovoked aggression" of Russia. This is an absolutely false statement.

Let me remind you that in February 2014, Washington and its satellites from the European Union staged a coup d'état in Kiev. It is from this point that subsequent events should be counted.

As a result of the coup, the legitimately elected president of Ukraine was forcibly overthrown, and pro-Western anti-Russian forces came to power with the support of neo-Nazi groups of followers of Hitler's collaborators S. Bandera and R. Shukhevych. This shook the country to its foundations, which could develop peacefully only if a complex internal political and inter-ethnic balance was maintained. This balance was destroyed by absolutely barbaric methods at the suggestion of the West, which thus tried to solve the geopolitical problem of developing territories that were once part of a single state inhabited by Russian and Russian-speaking people who historically gravitated towards Moscow.

After the new illegitimate government in Kiev made threats against the eastern regions that supported the ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, Crimea seceded from Ukraine, the inhabitants of which, in the course of a free expression of their will in full compliance with the norms of international law, spoke in favor of reunification with Russia.

An armed uprising broke out in the Russian Donbass. The Kiev regime did not even think of resolving the problem by political and diplomatic means, and for many years it methodically exterminated the inhabitants of the region only because they wanted to speak their native, Russian, language, honor their history and preserve the memory of the heroes of the Great Patriotic War, who liberated the peoples of Europe from the horrors of Hitlerism almost 80 years ago.

Considering Ukraine as a military battering ram against Russia, the United States and the EU countries pushed the Kiev regime to solve the "Donbass problem" by force - ethnic cleansing of its Russian and Russian-speaking residents. What are the cynical admissions of the former leaders of Germany and France, Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande, that the Minsk Package of Measures, in which they themselves participated, along with President Vladimir Putin, was needed only to gain time and allow Kiev to build up its military potential?

The dramatic development of the situation left Russia with no choice but to recognize the independence of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics and, in full compliance with international law, conclude treaties of friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance with them. Then, in response to their official appeals for assistance, in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter on the right to self-defense, a Special Military Operation was launched to protect people and eliminate the military threat from the Kyiv regime.

Why does the armed confrontation in Ukraine not stop? The answer is very simple - it will continue until the West abandons plans to maintain its dominance and obsession with inflicting a strategic defeat on Russia at the hands of its Kiev puppets. So far, there are no signs of a change in this position, and we see how the Americans and their vassals continue to feverishly pump weapons into Ukraine and push V. Zelensky to continue hostilities.

The West's disregard for initiatives emanating from developing countries is also indicative. This includes the proposals of Indonesian President J. Widodo, who on June 30, 2022, during his visit to Moscow, spoke about the need for a ceasefire, humanitarian assistance and food security, expressed his readiness to "establish communication" between the leaders of Russia and Ukraine.

On June 3, Indonesian Defence Minister Peter Subianto also spoke about the settlement of the Ukrainian crisis. However, in Kiev, his words were immediately perceived with hostility: they say, no intermediaries are needed now.

A symptom of the aggressive attitude of Kiev and its external patrons is the "peace formula" put forward by Vladimir Zelensky, which they are now trying to impose as the only possible recipe for a settlement. In fact, this is a set of ultimatums to Russia, including the organization of a trial of its military-political leadership and the seizure of material assets as "reparations". To legitimize these approaches that have nothing to do with the settlement, they want to convene a kind of "peace summit" in the near future, where developing countries are invited. I am sure that Indonesia is well aware of the harmful background of such plans and will not succumb to the false rhetoric of supporters of the war to the last Ukrainian.

Question: How will Russia achieve a new balance in international politics and according to what scheme? It is believed that a new "cold war" has already begun and continues. What are the implications for the global political economy? What is Russia's policy in the new Cold War?

Sergey Lavrov: We are not inclined to define the current stage of international relations as a kind of "new cold war". We are talking about something else - about the formation of a multipolar world order. This is an objective process. Everyone can see that new centers for making globally significant decisions are strengthening their positions in Eurasia, the Asia-Pacific region, the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America. Such states and their associations profess the values of national interests, independence, sovereignty, cultural and civilizational identity and international cooperation. That is, they are completely in the trend of world development and therefore are achieving new successes.

As for the "collective West" led by the United States, these countries seek to slow down and reverse these processes. Their goal is not to strengthen universal security and not to engage in joint development, but to maintain their hegemony in world affairs and further implement the neo-colonial agenda. And to put it simply: in the future, as they are used to, to solve their problems at someone else's expense.

Unilateral economic sanctions and the generally selfish foreign policy of our Western colleagues undermine global food and energy security. It was their actions that led to complications for developing countries. Huge funds that could have been used to promote international development, including to the countries most in need, are burning today in the form of thousands of tons of military equipment and ammunition supplied to Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

This coin, however, has another, more positive side. Western egocentrism, neglect of the interests of the countries of the Global South and East contribute to the search for alternative formats of cooperation in all areas. As a result of the arrest imposed on Russian gold and foreign exchange reserves in the United States and Europe, there is a growing understanding in the world community that no one is immune from the expropriation of tangible assets stored in Western jurisdictions. Not only Russia, but also a number of other states are consistently reducing their dependence on the US dollar, switching to the use of alternative payment systems and settlements in national currencies.

At the same time, the effectiveness of interstate associations, in which Western countries do not participate, is growing. An example of modern multilateral diplomacy is the activities of the SCO and BRICS. There are no "masters" or "followers", and decisions are made by consensus. We welcome Indonesia's interest in strengthening cooperation with these associations, which, of course, have a great future.

Question: In Russia's opinion, what position does Indonesia take in the current polarisation of the world, Asia and Southeast Asia? How are the current relations between Russia and Indonesia progressing under pressure from the world's major powers?

Sergey Lavrov: Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world in terms of population, the leader of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and one of Russia's key partners in the Asia-Pacific region. We are impressed by the commitment of our Indonesian friends to building interstate relations on the basis of equality, mutual consideration of interests, and respect for the principle of equal and indivisible security.

We highly appreciate Jakarta's independent foreign policy, which contributes to the formation of a more just world order, the promotion of the interests of the states of the Global East and South, the implementation of the Sustainable Development Goals, and the settlement of various conflicts. Indonesia's important role in world affairs was confirmed by Jakarta's successful G20 presidency last year.

I am pleased to note that, despite the illegitimate anti-Russian sanctions imposed by Washington and its satellites, Russian-Indonesian cooperation continues to develop in a very constructive manner. We have formed a solid legal framework. Its cornerstone is the Declaration on the Foundations of Friendship and Partnership in the Twenty-first Century, signed in 2003.

Today we can say that our relations have actually reached the level of strategic partnership. Political dialogue is characterized by high intensity. In June 2022, Presidents Vladimir Putin and Joko Widodo held talks in Moscow. In December 2022, Valentina Matvienko, Chairperson of the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly (upper house of parliament) of the Russian Federation, paid a working visit to Jakarta.

Trade and economic cooperation is expanding. In 2022, trade increased by almost 45%, reaching $4.79 billion.

We attach great importance to the liberalization of the terms of mutual trade in the EAEU-Indonesia format. The negotiation process on a free trade agreement is progressing well.

As head of the Russian diplomatic department, I would like to note our constructive cooperation at the UN and other multilateral venues on a wide range of pressing international issues, including food and energy security. This year, we are closely cooperating with Jakarta as the ASEAN chair on the agenda of the EAS [East Asia Summit], the ARF [ASEAN Regional Forum], ADMM-Plus [ASEAN Defence Ministers' Meeting Plus], as well as the Russia-ASEAN strategic partnership.

Question: What proposals can Russia put forward to help Indonesia and ASEAN in the situation around Myanmar? How does Russia feel about the authority and central role of ASEAN, while it is known that Russia is open to dialogue with the Myanmar military group? Will you attend the ASEAN meeting in July this year? If so, what are your priorities?

Sergey Lavrov: In our contacts with the authorities in Naypyidaw, we invariably emphasise the central role that ASEAN plays in international efforts to resolve the situation around Myanmar. We support the desire of the Indonesian Presidency to give an additional impetus to collective steps to implement the provisions of the Five-Point Consensus. We note the role of the Association in mobilizing humanitarian aid to the needy population.

We believe that the collective efforts of the ASEAN Ten and other interested countries in the Myanmar area should be based on close cooperation with official Naypyidaw. It is important not to allow differences in the choice of the best ways to promote a settlement in that country to have a negative impact on the unity of the Association and its central role in regional affairs.

We are convinced that the international community is called upon to help normalise the situation in Myanmar without interfering in its internal affairs. We invariably adhere to this principled position in building our relations with the Myanmar leadership, regardless of the specific personalities and political forces in power.

My immediate plans include a trip to ASEAN ministerial meetings in Jakarta. We pay special attention to the promotion of strategic partnership with the Association, which will celebrate its 2023th anniversary in 5 [sic]. The history of our relations goes back more than three decades. Their further development is among Russia's foreign policy priorities. This policy is enshrined in the updated Foreign Policy Concept of the Russian Federation, approved by President Vladimir Putin at the end of March this year.

The Russian-ASEAN Comprehensive Plan of Action, approved by the leaders in 2021, is being implemented very dynamically, and an active political dialogue has been established. Industry cooperation is expanding with its traditional emphasis on science and high technology. This, in particular, was demonstrated by the Russia-ASEAN Year of Scientific and Technical Cooperation in 2022, and we have on our agenda the launch of new areas of cooperation, including digital transformation and the development of smart cities, as well as energy and food security issues.

At the East Asia Summit, Russia has put forward a number of specific ideas. This includes the launch of a mechanism for collective response to pandemic threats, the development of cooperation between tourism departments, and the establishment of links between volunteer organizations. ASEAN has supported us in all these areas.

Within the framework of the ARF, which celebrates its 30th anniversary this year, we pay special attention to the issues of ensuring the security of the use of information and communication technologies and reducing nuclear risks. In these areas, Russia has come up with practical initiatives.

We are purposefully working to strengthen the architecture of stability and cooperation in the Asia-Pacific region that has been created around ASEAN. Today, the United States and its NATO allies, with the support of individual regional players, are stubbornly pursuing a policy of launching alternative bloc structures, including under the "Indo-Pacific" brand. These initiatives are aimed not at cooperation, but at deterrence and confrontation. As a result, the ASEAN-centric system is subjected to a rigorous test of strength. The Russian side is a reliable like-minded person of the Association. It is impossible to allow extrapolation to the Asia-Pacific region of the negative scenarios that were orchestrated by the United States and NATO in other parts of the world.

Question: Given the current regional and global developments, especially in terms of stability and security, as well as food, energy, health security and trade, what exactly can Russia offer Indonesia and the countries of the Indo-Pacific region?

Sergey Lavrov: Of course, we have a lot to offer the countries of the Asia-Pacific region and the Indian Ocean zone. Russia is one of the world's leading suppliers of food, oil, gas, valuable minerals, including rare earth metals. The vast majority of Russian exports of agricultural products (60%) go to Asian countries. Over the past year, our foreign trade with many partners in the international arena, including in Asia, has grown significantly.

Russia has achieved impressive results in the development of a high-tech production cluster. Our country is in the top 10 in terms of digitalization of public administration, scientific achievements and inventions in robotics, quantum technologies and artificial intelligence technologies, and the development of smart cities. ASEAN epidemiologists were able to get acquainted with the best practices in the field of combating infectious diseases as part of a three-year advanced training program, which ended at the end of 2022.

Given the difficult situation in the global economy, energy and food security issues have come to the forefront of our dialogue with the ASEAN Top Ten. In addition to the traditional oil and gas and coal industries, the recently adopted Russia-ASEAN Energy Work Plan pays considerable attention to renewable energy sources, nuclear and low-carbon energy.

Our experts are ready to discuss measures to deepen cooperation in the food sector.

As for Indonesia, Russia is ready to increase exports of wheat to your country, as well as meat, including those that meet halal standards. We are interested in expanding such cooperation in the Muslim regions of Russia.

We are convinced that an increase in the supply of Russian oil and petroleum products would help strengthen Jakarta's energy security. We are ready to share advanced solutions in the field of peaceful nuclear energy, including the construction of modern nuclear power plants of large and small capacity, the non-energy use of nuclear technologies, the creation of nuclear infrastructure and personnel training.

We are carefully studying the possibilities of connecting Russian transport, information and communication companies to the creation of an integrated infrastructure for the new capital, Nusantara on the island of Kalimantan.

The experience of countering the COVID-19 pandemic has shown that there are significant opportunities for bilateral cooperation in the anti-epidemiological field.

It would be in the interests of practical cooperation between Russia and the ASEAN states, including Indonesia, to launch consultations on the use of national currencies in mutual settlements. We are ready for substantive work in this and all the other areas I have listed.