Response to Karl Sanchez' "Crooke on the Nazi Gehlen-OSS/CIA Connections"
The key to western Ukraine is ethnically cleansing it of the Ukrainian nationalists. I think Russia will to a certain extent do this. People who think Russia will allow western Ukraine to be part of Poland or a "rump state" or any such scheme just don't get it. Yes, there are times when "ethnic cleansing" has to be done.
Russia needs western Ukraine - along with the rest of Ukraine - to be bulwark against the West starting with Poland and Romania. Russia needs to counter those Aegis Ashore installations in those countries and can only do so by placing its strategic defenses as close to those borders as possible - which is in western Ukraine.
To eliminate the problem of Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis, western Ukraine has to be cleansed of them by identifying those who fit the criteria (which is quite doable in this Internet age and by the use of Russian security services), detaining and deporting them to the West. This achieves the goal of "de-Nazification", it allows Russia to retain western Ukraine as part of its "border lands", it allows Russia to place a Military District there to counter the West, and it removes the possibility of a western Ukraine and/or NATO "insurgency" against Russia in the rest of Ukraine.
It is the only logical solution and I therefore assume Russia will do it - unless they listen to the morons who counsel against it.
I tend to agree. How does one denazify without significant purges of some sort related to the purification process. But denazifying Ukraine still leaves far too many Nazis in the world.
It’s not ethnic cleaning what you are talking about. It’s a cleaning of criminals, racists and terrorists. So why do you call it „ethnic cleaning“? There is no good reason or necessity ever for ethnic cleaning.
Agreed, they are not an ethnicity, but they ARE a culture.
No matter what claims to being "ein volk" the residual/resurgent Nazi wannabees our post WWII intelligence/state department collected and incubated as a tool for a future confrontation with Russia may invent,they are not an "ethnicity". They are more akin to a cult- You don't have to be born of them, they're happy to recruit from whoever.
The question of what you can do with such a group, especially after they've been given free reign over the local educational system for several decades is thorny. THEY absolutely WOULD drive their neighbors over the border- And for any too stubborn to flee, start filling the cattle cars and send them rolling towards new camps "for our guests from der Oest" such as Galician grandpas fondly remember.
If Russia's "final solution" is no better than that, they abandon any claim of ethical superiority.
So far, Russia has adopted a legal approach besides that happening on the battlefield. Nuremburg is invoked often by Russia's public ministers, and Zakharova includes a recap of legal proceedings in her weekly briefings. The Global Majority needs to keep the upper moral/ethical position however difficult that proves to be as with Palestine, as Putin, Xi and others understand well.
Nuremberg trials were not so much about justice or real German leadership changes as about media & optics, the USA kept TONS of (less famous) high ranking "good (somewhat) ex Nazis" and quickly rebuilt the West German army around them. 16 years after the war, ex wermacht general Adolf Heusinger was Chairman of the NATO Military Committee- Heusinger in 1940 - 41 had commanded the Wermacht setup and run the planning for Operation Barbarossa, including the looting and integration of Soviet resources (food!) into the Nazi war machine- Among the main causes leading to MILLIONS of civilians deaths.
Heusinger's english Wikipedia page does not anywhere describe him using the word "Nazi", nor does the Operation Barbarossa page on Wikipedia list his name among the German commanders?! Yet he was officially cleared of suspicion after the assassination attempt on Hitler?! Sure, definitely never a Nazi party member. Certainly never involved in planning leading to any war crimes, nothing to see here, move along
Well, technically you are correct. However, the bulk of the people involved are ethnic Ukrainians, not Ukrainian Russians or Poles or whoever. So whether they're called nationalists or Nazis, it will be described as ethnic cleansing because it's a specific subset of ethnic Ukrainians. If they weren't ethnic Ukrainians, they probably wouldn't be Nazis. The reason for their removal is precisely because they are racists and terrorists and Nazis - but they're still a specific ethnicity, if not the entirety of that ethnicity.
I searched what copy of the law I could find for these words and did not find them. If this is a true thing then it is very, very damning of Ukraine, of course. If it is an untrue thing then it is very disappointing of Karlof - perhaps even damning there, too.
Perhaps a link to an authoritative copy of the document?
The words in question:
"
Peoples of Ukraine states that only Germanic Ukrainians, Tatars and Karaites have “the right to fully enjoy all human rights and all fundamental freedoms”. It was signed into law by President Zelensky on 21 July 2021. "
The above says: " However, unexpectedly, only three peoples of multinational Ukraine were declared indigenous, and most of them do not live in the territory under Kyiv’s control. Crimean Tatars live mainly in Crimea, and Krymchaks and Karaites – in Israel. Why did President Zelensky need this law and how will it affect the country’s interethnic relations?"
I've checked the links you provided as well as I could and it seems to me that they produce exactly the same text.
Translation I got reproduced here minus sections that don't seem relevant because substack would not accept the whole thing: too long:
Project
It is introduced President of Ukraine
Z A K O N U K R A Ї N I
About indigenous nations of Ukraine
_________________________
Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to promote consolidation and development of the Ukrainian nation, as well as ethnic, cultural, linguistic development and religious identity of all natives peoples of Ukraine, in accordance with the Constitution of Ukraine and the laws of Ukraine and international laws contracts of Ukraine, consent to binding which were granted by the Supreme by council of Ukraine, based on the Declaration of Rights nationalities of Ukraine, relying on on Article 1 of the Charter of the United Organization Nations, Vienna Declaration, Declaration United Nations on rights indigenous peoples, taking into account the Resolution of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine from March 20 No. 1140–VII of 2014 "On the Application of the Supreme Council of Ukraine regarding the guarantee of rights of the Crimean Tatar people in the composition of the Ukrainian State", accepts this one The law defining the rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine and peculiarities of their implementation.
Article 1. Concept indigenous people of Ukraine
1. The indigenous people of Ukraine are autochthonous ethnic community that formed on territory of Ukraine, is the carrier of the original languages and cultures, has traditional, social, cultural or representative bodies, self-consciously an indigenous people of Ukraine, is an ethnic minority in composition of its population and does not have its own state entity outside of Ukraine.
2. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine, which were formed on the territory of Crimea peninsula, there are Crimean Tatars, Karaites, krymchaks
3. Representative bodies of indigenous peoples of Ukraine - corresponding representatives institutions created by indigenous people peoples and in accordance with the Constitution and the laws of Ukraine are awarded by right represent indigenous peoples and make decisions from in their name (hereinafter - representative bodies).
Article 2. Legal personality indigenous peoples of Ukraine
1. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right to self-determination in Ukraine, establish its political status within the Constitution and the laws of Ukraine, are freely carried out its economic, social and cultural development.
2. Indigenous nations of Ukraine, realizing his right for self-determination, have the right to self-government in matters that are related to their internal business in that number of concerning ways creation their representative bodies what are formed and act in boundaries Constitution and laws of Ukraine.
3. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right in accordance with the Constitution and laws of Ukraine to preserve and strengthen their own special political, legal, social and cultural institutes, while keeping their own participation in economic, social and cultural life.
4. State helps representation of indigenous peoples in Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and bodies of the Autonomous local self-government Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol.
5. The state promotes capacity building territorial communities that would be responsible places of compact residence of natives peoples of Ukraine.
6. The state guarantees the protection of indigenous peoples of Ukraine from acts of genocide or any other other acts of collective coercion or violence
Article 3. Fundamental rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
1. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine and their representatives have the right collectively and individually for complete possession of all rights human and fundamental freedoms defined in the Charter of the United Nations, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Declarations of the United Nations about the rights of indigenous peoples and international ones contracts, the consent of which is binding provided by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, as well as provided for in the Constitution and laws of Ukraine.
2. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right to equal legal protection. Any discrimination against indigenous peoples of Ukraine when exercising their rights is prohibited
3. The state implements enhanced measures support of indigenous peoples of Ukraine - temporary measures taken by the state to overcome the negative for natives peoples of social, legal or cultural character, through the creation of special favorable implementation mechanisms rights freedoms and needs indigenous peoples
Activities enhanced support are introduced by the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine upon request and after consultations with representative bodies.
4. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine are guaranteed the right to legal protection against any actions aimed at:
1) deprivation of signs of ethnicity and integrity as distinct peoples, deprivation of cultural values;
2) eviction or forced displacement from places of compact residence in any form;
3) forced assimilation or forced integration in any form;
4) encouraging or inciting racial, ethnic or religious hatred, directed against them.
5. The indigenous peoples of Ukraine are determined own national symbols and order its application in compliance with the laws of Ukraine.
6. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right revive, use, develop and pass on to future generations history, languages, traditions, writing and literature, restore and preserve tangible and intangible objects cultural heritage.
7. Denial of ethnicity or ethnic identity of indigenous peoples Ukraine is prohibited.
Article 4. Cultural rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 5. Educational and language rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 6. Informational rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 7. Right indigenous peoples of Ukraine on a permanent basis development
Article 8. Legal status of representative bodies
Article 9. Resourceful provision of representative bodies
Article 10. International representation of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 11. At the end and transitional provisions
law:
prepare and submit to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine proposals for the introduction of laws of Ukraine in accordance with this Law;
bring its normative legal acts in compliance with this Law;
to provide adoption of normative legal acts, provided for by this Law;
to provide review and cancellation by ministries and other central bodies of the executive power, their normative and legal acts that contradict this Law.
Head Verkhovna
And I don't find within that text the disgraceful and inflammatory paragraph I first questioned.
I have no further answer expect to consult Crooke who wrote what he wrote, not I. However, there's this from the analytical essay I linked:
"But the absence of state entities outside the country as a precondition for belonging to an indigenous people is absolutely new. This crosses off the list all irredenta, of which there have been quite a few since the collapse of the USSR.
"Arguably only Latvia in 2012 at the level of the Ministry of Culture adopted the so-called “Basic Guidelines of the Civil Society Identity and Integration Policy”, where in the first section (Introduction) it gave only “nation”, as opposed to “people”, the right to have their own nation state. Ukraine, perhaps as part of this precedent, has denied such a right to indigenous peoples. On the other hand, by taking this step, it has denied the rights of indigenous peoples to a number of ethnic groups, such as Poles, Bulgarians, Greeks, Romanians and Moldovans, Jews and, of course, Russians, who accounted for 17.3% of the country’s population according to the last census (2001)."
There were Germans living in Crimea, but then Germanic peoples populate all Europe. I'm a Visigoth by heritage, for example. I can see how the law could be interpreted in the manner it has, but it does seem clear that the term "Germanic" is absent. IMO, Crooke didn't need to cite that law to make his point as lots of other evidence exists.
Laughable that the law states that it applies to “Germanic “ Ukrainians. This of course feeds into the nonsense that “Ukrainians”, whatever that means ,are mainly descendants of Germans. This is patently false as proven by epigraphic, historic, cultural and linguistic evidence. It is so obviously a dogwhistle to Germany and the Anglosphere’s racists and supremacists. The Ukrainians are to all extent and purposes Russians, and thus mainly Slavs- and to say otherwise is to say that the Irish of Northern Ireland are somehow different to the Eire Irish and thus English , because the former have been under the British for hundreds of years! I think that you’d be hard-pressed to find a native Irishman of Northern Ireland to say he is ethnically English.
Karaites and Crimean Tatars! Hahaha . Well how obvious ! The Karaites are of course one of the “Jews” and in fact likely part of the only real Jews left, but that is for another discussion. Why include them and not include the Greeks for instance who were there before the Russians ,Karaites or Ukrainians even arrived? They were there over two thousand years ago and are the longest-known remaining natives of the Ukraine! Well the recognition of the Karaites pleases Israel and all its Gentile well-wishers (read Christian Evangelicals)and also makes gullible people think , well the Ukrainians can’t be Nazis as they protect the Karaites, ie the Jews. Ironically, traditional Karaites despise Israel and the Askenazis , as they believe any Israel built before the end of the World is sacrilegious. The Askenazi Israelis haven’t liked them either.
Crimean Tatars? Well that is to keep Turkey and Erdogan happy as Turkey has always considered the Mongol Tatars as brother Turks and Turkey is a supporter of Ukraine at least from the point of view of not ever recognising Crimea and supplying Bayraktars to the Ukraine . ln effect, a sop to the US as well , as it keeps Turkey within NATO.
No recognition of the Greeks! Well of course the Greeks were there before Tatars or Turks or even Russians or Ukrainians or Cossacks ever arrived. So this is brilliant geopolitics and race -hatred / spoiling writ large. Non-recognition, spites Russia as Greece is the foundational culture of Russia from the point of view of religion, letters and shared historical hardship etc. It also pleases the Turks for obvious reasons , and downgrades the shared culture and religion of all Orthodox peoples. Even the now renegade Ukrainian Greek Catholics or Uniates are traditionally Orthodox who simply yield to the Pope rather than the Patriarch. Those Galician / Volhynians really are a deluded,spiteful lot! That was there only significant difference until maybe a century ago. All must remember the only people to be found in Crimea and Novorussia when the Russians reconquered the area in the late 1700s were… invading Turk and Tatar settlers and Greeks. More Greeks and Serbs were brought in by Catherine The Great-resettled patriots who had fought the Turks- to reChristianise the area , and it was those two who were first in Dnipro before it ever became the most sacred city of the Jews in the Ukraine.
The hypocrisy of geopolitics will make you sick ,and I think it was Bismark who said that (geo) politics was like the inside of a sausage-factory and better most people don’t see the inside of it or they would be turned off in droves!
Yes, the law was very much contrived as the analytical essay noted. The main point raised however is correct, the term "Germanic" is nowhere to be found, which proves Crooke to be human as he erred in copying something and not citing his source, which is unusual for him as he's rather careful.
thank you for this, karl. i especially enjoyed the alistair's link to the sachs, hedges interview. i've a question, off thread, but i wonder if you've any thoughts on rfkjr's position on israel? it gives me more than a moment's pause, knowing the deep state's involvement in his father's as well as his uncle's death. i understand fully if you delete this as off topic.
I just visited https://www.kennedy24.com/ to see if it has posted more policy positions including Occupied Palestine and there's nothing new, which is to say there's no mention of that issue, and I don't have the time to watch a bunch of videos to discover what he actually says. Now, in the very long interview done by The Tablet, it's clear that he's persuaded by his ancestor's policy lines, but nothing's revealed beyond that. I've heard this and that but have yet to read a direct quote from him on the issue. Given how his kin were convinced by our own propaganda and that of the Zionists to the point where they never sought the truth for themselves is troubling indeed. Given his vow yesterday when announcing his independent candidacy,
“We declare independence from the two political parties and the corrupt interests that dominate them and the entire rigged system… that have turned government officials into indentured servants for their corporate bosses.”
And what it says at the above website:
"We will end the forever wars, clean up government, increase wealth for all, and tell Americans the truth"
It will be very hard to support the Zionists; if he does, then he breaks all his vows and becomes no better than Biden.
"WW2 had ended without any formal treaty, but rather with a cancerous dispute about the future of Germany, fuelled by gathering Cold War." is the common understanding in the west, but in fact, in 1952 the Soviets formally proposed that a treaty be established to end WWII and reunify Germany. The terms they recommended were surprisingly lenient on Germany - reunification, national elections, and end to denazification, freedom to restore their military and engage with the rest of the world as a normal nation and - most importantly - neutrality. This was the sticking point for the US as they did not want to withdraw their troops. The proposed treaty and its terms and the US machinations to undermine German acceptance of the proposal are all available in the US and Soviet archives and are published in English, but.... it's been memory holed and submerged under fake history of this difficult period.
Russian Federation is doing with Ukraine, what Frances should havee done in March 1936 about Hitler moving 20,000 soldiers into “demilitarized” Rheinland.
Had FDR lived his Feb 1943 plan with Stalin to sunder Germany in to 4 deindustrial agrarians states never to unite or arm would have been implemented.
Potsdam 1945 Churchill effected the Cold War reneging on FDR!
Gehlen gets considerable play in David Talbot's "The Devil's Chessboard." Allen Dulles (CIA) loved Nazis. The two accountings round each other out well.
Why did Patton say: 'I think we slaughtered the wrong pig?'
Why did the US take in so many Nazis having just fought them so bitterly?
Because they were closet Adolf Worshippers?
No: because they learned from Gehlen, Muller and others the extent of the plans for conquest of the West. The Germans had extensive intel on Russia which the Jewish-influenced American Intelligence for Eastern Europe etc. had hidden from them. Indeed, Muller's testimony revealed that there were dozens of high-placed agents within the US working with the communist agenda to take over the world. They were right to be alarmed, though nowadays the Nazi narrative is so established that any association with them is immediately branded as beyond the pale, though not always correctly. (Which is where most of the mischief came from, truth be told.) What a mess!
And all this confusing entanglement continues to this day, now in Izzylandia and Ukraine. The West has been infiltrated by bad actors and keeps tearing itself apart following their treacherous diktats.
I get so much substack related email notifications it's possible yours got lost within that flood. Give another try and I'll be mindful while clearing my inbox.
A very little known episode in history and full of contradictions.
Gehlen was not SS, he was a regular officer in the Wehrmacht. He was promoted to the head of Fremde Heer Ost at during the second half of WW2. A careful study of his work at that time (in combination with the SS intelligence services) reveal a very politicised but professional outfit. They underestimated Russian numbers by around 10%, but did identify about 99% of all known units. Their most famous failure was Bagration which was predicted to be a holding attack instead of the main event. This helped to created conditions for a steep rise in German losses in the last year of the war and ended up in the Reichstag.
After the war all the allies looted what had been Nazi Germany's assets - physical, financial and human.
Stalin's USSR was no paragon being a brutal totalitarian dictatorship. It had murdered and imprisoned millions of its own people and was busy similarly liquidating real and imaged opposition everywhere it controlled. Beria had collected all the ex Nazi scientists and equipment he could and was in charge of the Soviet nuclear bomb project. It is fasinating looking at the military balance c 1950. For what it is worth Beria's son, Sergei, claims that Stalin was planning an attack on NATO in 1953. He certainly had the means.
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could see the contours of the Cold War forming. Gehlen was therefore a natural shoe in to western intelligence gathering about the USSR. The West might have been re-arming c 1950 (but not West Germany until 1956) but the Red Army never really disarmed. Geo-political necessity makes odd bedfellows.
This also included many many ex Nazi officers who wrote papers and briefed western militaries on fighting the Russians. From this first hand knowledge though, we in the west appear to have inherited a racist view of Russian capabilities and intentions. Much has Nazi roots. This certainly appears to be a problem in 2023 for the West.
There certainly was a partisan war against the Soviets in Eastern Galicia which went on until the early 1950's. Ineed Soviet troops were fired on in 1944 as they "liberated" the region, the most famous casualty being a Marshal (Malinkovsky?). This region was Polish until annexed in 1939 by Stalin in his agreement to attack and partition Poland (and other nations) with Hitler (and part of the Tsarist Empire until 1917). It is certainly the case that OSS was involved in this partisan war post 45. The NKVD were in many respects as viscious and numerous as the SS and any Banderite supporters would have stood no chance. It is arguable though that the Soviets formented the partisan war by their brutal and oppresive behaviour in that region between 39 and 41. There were it seems no good guys here.
The 16th Galician Division was not raised as an SS unit but army units were transferred wholesale to the SS. This should not be misunderstood. Most of these "Galician" army units were complicit in anti-partisan activities (ie nurdering civilians and burning villages) and in the final solution. They made poor combat soldiers and were nearly anihilated in the Battle for Brody in July 1944. The odd thing for me is why there were so many left to emigrate west after the war as most of the actual division suffered encirclement. It suggests a significantly larger organisation than just the fighting unit. The 200,000 number in the article indicates if correct a widescale political organisation.
When Putin first talked about de-Nazification I thought he had been on the Vodka. I now see I was under educated about the true nature of the Zelensky regime. However I think it a step too far to describe western nations as Nazi, even though they are allied with a truly wicked bunch in Ukraine. However these views of Russian inferiority appear to have infected the western establishment - military, political and in the media space. In the Cold War days we showed the USSR respect and feared them. Not so now it seems. And this really explains why our great and good ever thought that Ukraine might be able to defeat the Bear.
Response to Karl Sanchez' "Crooke on the Nazi Gehlen-OSS/CIA Connections"
The key to western Ukraine is ethnically cleansing it of the Ukrainian nationalists. I think Russia will to a certain extent do this. People who think Russia will allow western Ukraine to be part of Poland or a "rump state" or any such scheme just don't get it. Yes, there are times when "ethnic cleansing" has to be done.
Russia needs western Ukraine - along with the rest of Ukraine - to be bulwark against the West starting with Poland and Romania. Russia needs to counter those Aegis Ashore installations in those countries and can only do so by placing its strategic defenses as close to those borders as possible - which is in western Ukraine.
To eliminate the problem of Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis, western Ukraine has to be cleansed of them by identifying those who fit the criteria (which is quite doable in this Internet age and by the use of Russian security services), detaining and deporting them to the West. This achieves the goal of "de-Nazification", it allows Russia to retain western Ukraine as part of its "border lands", it allows Russia to place a Military District there to counter the West, and it removes the possibility of a western Ukraine and/or NATO "insurgency" against Russia in the rest of Ukraine.
It is the only logical solution and I therefore assume Russia will do it - unless they listen to the morons who counsel against it.
I tend to agree. How does one denazify without significant purges of some sort related to the purification process. But denazifying Ukraine still leaves far too many Nazis in the world.
Yup. But one thing at a time.
It’s not ethnic cleaning what you are talking about. It’s a cleaning of criminals, racists and terrorists. So why do you call it „ethnic cleaning“? There is no good reason or necessity ever for ethnic cleaning.
@njet
Agreed, they are not an ethnicity, but they ARE a culture.
No matter what claims to being "ein volk" the residual/resurgent Nazi wannabees our post WWII intelligence/state department collected and incubated as a tool for a future confrontation with Russia may invent,they are not an "ethnicity". They are more akin to a cult- You don't have to be born of them, they're happy to recruit from whoever.
The question of what you can do with such a group, especially after they've been given free reign over the local educational system for several decades is thorny. THEY absolutely WOULD drive their neighbors over the border- And for any too stubborn to flee, start filling the cattle cars and send them rolling towards new camps "for our guests from der Oest" such as Galician grandpas fondly remember.
If Russia's "final solution" is no better than that, they abandon any claim of ethical superiority.
So far, Russia has adopted a legal approach besides that happening on the battlefield. Nuremburg is invoked often by Russia's public ministers, and Zakharova includes a recap of legal proceedings in her weekly briefings. The Global Majority needs to keep the upper moral/ethical position however difficult that proves to be as with Palestine, as Putin, Xi and others understand well.
@Karl Sanchez
Nuremberg trials were not so much about justice or real German leadership changes as about media & optics, the USA kept TONS of (less famous) high ranking "good (somewhat) ex Nazis" and quickly rebuilt the West German army around them. 16 years after the war, ex wermacht general Adolf Heusinger was Chairman of the NATO Military Committee- Heusinger in 1940 - 41 had commanded the Wermacht setup and run the planning for Operation Barbarossa, including the looting and integration of Soviet resources (food!) into the Nazi war machine- Among the main causes leading to MILLIONS of civilians deaths.
Heusinger's english Wikipedia page does not anywhere describe him using the word "Nazi", nor does the Operation Barbarossa page on Wikipedia list his name among the German commanders?! Yet he was officially cleared of suspicion after the assassination attempt on Hitler?! Sure, definitely never a Nazi party member. Certainly never involved in planning leading to any war crimes, nothing to see here, move along
https://www.frenchrights.com/twelve-of-them-the-nazis-who-served-the-allies-after-wwii#:~:text=Adolf%20Heusinger%20went%20from%20being,and%20served%20the%20Soviet%20Union.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Heusinger
(the definition of "good German" had switched rapidly from DEAD to ANTI RUSSIAN)
We lay down with dogs and got up with fleas.
Well, technically you are correct. However, the bulk of the people involved are ethnic Ukrainians, not Ukrainian Russians or Poles or whoever. So whether they're called nationalists or Nazis, it will be described as ethnic cleansing because it's a specific subset of ethnic Ukrainians. If they weren't ethnic Ukrainians, they probably wouldn't be Nazis. The reason for their removal is precisely because they are racists and terrorists and Nazis - but they're still a specific ethnicity, if not the entirety of that ethnicity.
I searched what copy of the law I could find for these words and did not find them. If this is a true thing then it is very, very damning of Ukraine, of course. If it is an untrue thing then it is very disappointing of Karlof - perhaps even damning there, too.
Perhaps a link to an authoritative copy of the document?
The words in question:
"
Peoples of Ukraine states that only Germanic Ukrainians, Tatars and Karaites have “the right to fully enjoy all human rights and all fundamental freedoms”. It was signed into law by President Zelensky on 21 July 2021. "
Here's the link to the draft law--in Ukrainian--which was eventually signed, http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/zweb2/webproc4_1?pf3511=71931
Here's an article that discusses the law which is where I found the link, https://culturico.com/2021/12/20/the-law-on-the-indigenous-peoples-of-ukraine-what-does-it-bring-to-national-minorities/
The above says: " However, unexpectedly, only three peoples of multinational Ukraine were declared indigenous, and most of them do not live in the territory under Kyiv’s control. Crimean Tatars live mainly in Crimea, and Krymchaks and Karaites – in Israel. Why did President Zelensky need this law and how will it affect the country’s interethnic relations?"
What seems more important is what the rights are of the other ethnic minorities listed here (Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Greeks, etc.) and subject to a law adopted in 1992. That link on the Library of Congress site is in Ukrainian. https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2021-08-02/ukraine-new-law-determines-legal-status-of-indigenous-people/
this is what I first consulted:
https://perma.cc/G2ZG-9GHX
I've checked the links you provided as well as I could and it seems to me that they produce exactly the same text.
Translation I got reproduced here minus sections that don't seem relevant because substack would not accept the whole thing: too long:
Project
It is introduced President of Ukraine
Z A K O N U K R A Ї N I
About indigenous nations of Ukraine
_________________________
Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to promote consolidation and development of the Ukrainian nation, as well as ethnic, cultural, linguistic development and religious identity of all natives peoples of Ukraine, in accordance with the Constitution of Ukraine and the laws of Ukraine and international laws contracts of Ukraine, consent to binding which were granted by the Supreme by council of Ukraine, based on the Declaration of Rights nationalities of Ukraine, relying on on Article 1 of the Charter of the United Organization Nations, Vienna Declaration, Declaration United Nations on rights indigenous peoples, taking into account the Resolution of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine from March 20 No. 1140–VII of 2014 "On the Application of the Supreme Council of Ukraine regarding the guarantee of rights of the Crimean Tatar people in the composition of the Ukrainian State", accepts this one The law defining the rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine and peculiarities of their implementation.
Article 1. Concept indigenous people of Ukraine
1. The indigenous people of Ukraine are autochthonous ethnic community that formed on territory of Ukraine, is the carrier of the original languages and cultures, has traditional, social, cultural or representative bodies, self-consciously an indigenous people of Ukraine, is an ethnic minority in composition of its population and does not have its own state entity outside of Ukraine.
2. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine, which were formed on the territory of Crimea peninsula, there are Crimean Tatars, Karaites, krymchaks
3. Representative bodies of indigenous peoples of Ukraine - corresponding representatives institutions created by indigenous people peoples and in accordance with the Constitution and the laws of Ukraine are awarded by right represent indigenous peoples and make decisions from in their name (hereinafter - representative bodies).
Article 2. Legal personality indigenous peoples of Ukraine
1. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right to self-determination in Ukraine, establish its political status within the Constitution and the laws of Ukraine, are freely carried out its economic, social and cultural development.
2. Indigenous nations of Ukraine, realizing his right for self-determination, have the right to self-government in matters that are related to their internal business in that number of concerning ways creation their representative bodies what are formed and act in boundaries Constitution and laws of Ukraine.
3. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right in accordance with the Constitution and laws of Ukraine to preserve and strengthen their own special political, legal, social and cultural institutes, while keeping their own participation in economic, social and cultural life.
4. State helps representation of indigenous peoples in Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, Verkhovna Rada of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and bodies of the Autonomous local self-government Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol.
5. The state promotes capacity building territorial communities that would be responsible places of compact residence of natives peoples of Ukraine.
6. The state guarantees the protection of indigenous peoples of Ukraine from acts of genocide or any other other acts of collective coercion or violence
Article 3. Fundamental rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
1. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine and their representatives have the right collectively and individually for complete possession of all rights human and fundamental freedoms defined in the Charter of the United Nations, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Declarations of the United Nations about the rights of indigenous peoples and international ones contracts, the consent of which is binding provided by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, as well as provided for in the Constitution and laws of Ukraine.
2. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right to equal legal protection. Any discrimination against indigenous peoples of Ukraine when exercising their rights is prohibited
3. The state implements enhanced measures support of indigenous peoples of Ukraine - temporary measures taken by the state to overcome the negative for natives peoples of social, legal or cultural character, through the creation of special favorable implementation mechanisms rights freedoms and needs indigenous peoples
Activities enhanced support are introduced by the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine upon request and after consultations with representative bodies.
4. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine are guaranteed the right to legal protection against any actions aimed at:
1) deprivation of signs of ethnicity and integrity as distinct peoples, deprivation of cultural values;
2) eviction or forced displacement from places of compact residence in any form;
3) forced assimilation or forced integration in any form;
4) encouraging or inciting racial, ethnic or religious hatred, directed against them.
5. The indigenous peoples of Ukraine are determined own national symbols and order its application in compliance with the laws of Ukraine.
6. Indigenous peoples of Ukraine have the right revive, use, develop and pass on to future generations history, languages, traditions, writing and literature, restore and preserve tangible and intangible objects cultural heritage.
7. Denial of ethnicity or ethnic identity of indigenous peoples Ukraine is prohibited.
Article 4. Cultural rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 5. Educational and language rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 6. Informational rights of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 7. Right indigenous peoples of Ukraine on a permanent basis development
Article 8. Legal status of representative bodies
Article 9. Resourceful provision of representative bodies
Article 10. International representation of indigenous peoples of Ukraine
Article 11. At the end and transitional provisions
law:
prepare and submit to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine proposals for the introduction of laws of Ukraine in accordance with this Law;
bring its normative legal acts in compliance with this Law;
to provide adoption of normative legal acts, provided for by this Law;
to provide review and cancellation by ministries and other central bodies of the executive power, their normative and legal acts that contradict this Law.
Head Verkhovna
And I don't find within that text the disgraceful and inflammatory paragraph I first questioned.
I have no further answer expect to consult Crooke who wrote what he wrote, not I. However, there's this from the analytical essay I linked:
"But the absence of state entities outside the country as a precondition for belonging to an indigenous people is absolutely new. This crosses off the list all irredenta, of which there have been quite a few since the collapse of the USSR.
"Arguably only Latvia in 2012 at the level of the Ministry of Culture adopted the so-called “Basic Guidelines of the Civil Society Identity and Integration Policy”, where in the first section (Introduction) it gave only “nation”, as opposed to “people”, the right to have their own nation state. Ukraine, perhaps as part of this precedent, has denied such a right to indigenous peoples. On the other hand, by taking this step, it has denied the rights of indigenous peoples to a number of ethnic groups, such as Poles, Bulgarians, Greeks, Romanians and Moldovans, Jews and, of course, Russians, who accounted for 17.3% of the country’s population according to the last census (2001)."
I find that same citation 2/3s down the page here, which I found using Germanic Ukrainians as the search term, https://www.sott.net/article/466225-The-Nazis-of-Ukraine?ysclid=lnjlwm7hpw582152058
There were Germans living in Crimea, but then Germanic peoples populate all Europe. I'm a Visigoth by heritage, for example. I can see how the law could be interpreted in the manner it has, but it does seem clear that the term "Germanic" is absent. IMO, Crooke didn't need to cite that law to make his point as lots of other evidence exists.
Thanks for your response and for putting so much effort into it all.
In the end there you've left me somewhat befuddled by scholarship and out of my depth.
In my little simplistic world it goes down as a canard: no such thing exists or existed in the document.
The fine points, the quibbles, the wheretofores etc... I leave to the scholars.
But to calumniate Kiev Ukraine on the strength of that quote as put is simply not valid.
It's been an interesting foray. :)
Laughable that the law states that it applies to “Germanic “ Ukrainians. This of course feeds into the nonsense that “Ukrainians”, whatever that means ,are mainly descendants of Germans. This is patently false as proven by epigraphic, historic, cultural and linguistic evidence. It is so obviously a dogwhistle to Germany and the Anglosphere’s racists and supremacists. The Ukrainians are to all extent and purposes Russians, and thus mainly Slavs- and to say otherwise is to say that the Irish of Northern Ireland are somehow different to the Eire Irish and thus English , because the former have been under the British for hundreds of years! I think that you’d be hard-pressed to find a native Irishman of Northern Ireland to say he is ethnically English.
Karaites and Crimean Tatars! Hahaha . Well how obvious ! The Karaites are of course one of the “Jews” and in fact likely part of the only real Jews left, but that is for another discussion. Why include them and not include the Greeks for instance who were there before the Russians ,Karaites or Ukrainians even arrived? They were there over two thousand years ago and are the longest-known remaining natives of the Ukraine! Well the recognition of the Karaites pleases Israel and all its Gentile well-wishers (read Christian Evangelicals)and also makes gullible people think , well the Ukrainians can’t be Nazis as they protect the Karaites, ie the Jews. Ironically, traditional Karaites despise Israel and the Askenazis , as they believe any Israel built before the end of the World is sacrilegious. The Askenazi Israelis haven’t liked them either.
Crimean Tatars? Well that is to keep Turkey and Erdogan happy as Turkey has always considered the Mongol Tatars as brother Turks and Turkey is a supporter of Ukraine at least from the point of view of not ever recognising Crimea and supplying Bayraktars to the Ukraine . ln effect, a sop to the US as well , as it keeps Turkey within NATO.
No recognition of the Greeks! Well of course the Greeks were there before Tatars or Turks or even Russians or Ukrainians or Cossacks ever arrived. So this is brilliant geopolitics and race -hatred / spoiling writ large. Non-recognition, spites Russia as Greece is the foundational culture of Russia from the point of view of religion, letters and shared historical hardship etc. It also pleases the Turks for obvious reasons , and downgrades the shared culture and religion of all Orthodox peoples. Even the now renegade Ukrainian Greek Catholics or Uniates are traditionally Orthodox who simply yield to the Pope rather than the Patriarch. Those Galician / Volhynians really are a deluded,spiteful lot! That was there only significant difference until maybe a century ago. All must remember the only people to be found in Crimea and Novorussia when the Russians reconquered the area in the late 1700s were… invading Turk and Tatar settlers and Greeks. More Greeks and Serbs were brought in by Catherine The Great-resettled patriots who had fought the Turks- to reChristianise the area , and it was those two who were first in Dnipro before it ever became the most sacred city of the Jews in the Ukraine.
The hypocrisy of geopolitics will make you sick ,and I think it was Bismark who said that (geo) politics was like the inside of a sausage-factory and better most people don’t see the inside of it or they would be turned off in droves!
Yes, the law was very much contrived as the analytical essay noted. The main point raised however is correct, the term "Germanic" is nowhere to be found, which proves Crooke to be human as he erred in copying something and not citing his source, which is unusual for him as he's rather careful.
thank you for this, karl. i especially enjoyed the alistair's link to the sachs, hedges interview. i've a question, off thread, but i wonder if you've any thoughts on rfkjr's position on israel? it gives me more than a moment's pause, knowing the deep state's involvement in his father's as well as his uncle's death. i understand fully if you delete this as off topic.
I just visited https://www.kennedy24.com/ to see if it has posted more policy positions including Occupied Palestine and there's nothing new, which is to say there's no mention of that issue, and I don't have the time to watch a bunch of videos to discover what he actually says. Now, in the very long interview done by The Tablet, it's clear that he's persuaded by his ancestor's policy lines, but nothing's revealed beyond that. I've heard this and that but have yet to read a direct quote from him on the issue. Given how his kin were convinced by our own propaganda and that of the Zionists to the point where they never sought the truth for themselves is troubling indeed. Given his vow yesterday when announcing his independent candidacy,
“We declare independence from the two political parties and the corrupt interests that dominate them and the entire rigged system… that have turned government officials into indentured servants for their corporate bosses.”
And what it says at the above website:
"We will end the forever wars, clean up government, increase wealth for all, and tell Americans the truth"
It will be very hard to support the Zionists; if he does, then he breaks all his vows and becomes no better than Biden.
"WW2 had ended without any formal treaty, but rather with a cancerous dispute about the future of Germany, fuelled by gathering Cold War." is the common understanding in the west, but in fact, in 1952 the Soviets formally proposed that a treaty be established to end WWII and reunify Germany. The terms they recommended were surprisingly lenient on Germany - reunification, national elections, and end to denazification, freedom to restore their military and engage with the rest of the world as a normal nation and - most importantly - neutrality. This was the sticking point for the US as they did not want to withdraw their troops. The proposed treaty and its terms and the US machinations to undermine German acceptance of the proposal are all available in the US and Soviet archives and are published in English, but.... it's been memory holed and submerged under fake history of this difficult period.
https://stolzuntermenschen.substack.com/p/falsificators-of-history-part-3
Yes, an excellent point, which is why knowing the underlying context is crucial.
Russian Federation is doing with Ukraine, what Frances should havee done in March 1936 about Hitler moving 20,000 soldiers into “demilitarized” Rheinland.
Had FDR lived his Feb 1943 plan with Stalin to sunder Germany in to 4 deindustrial agrarians states never to unite or arm would have been implemented.
Potsdam 1945 Churchill effected the Cold War reneging on FDR!
Gehlen gets considerable play in David Talbot's "The Devil's Chessboard." Allen Dulles (CIA) loved Nazis. The two accountings round each other out well.
Oh what a tangled web we weave....
You might enjoy some of this: https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=95C834626D476603BE1200D895CA9839 Post-war interviews with Heinrich 'Gestapo' Muller.
Why did Patton say: 'I think we slaughtered the wrong pig?'
Why did the US take in so many Nazis having just fought them so bitterly?
Because they were closet Adolf Worshippers?
No: because they learned from Gehlen, Muller and others the extent of the plans for conquest of the West. The Germans had extensive intel on Russia which the Jewish-influenced American Intelligence for Eastern Europe etc. had hidden from them. Indeed, Muller's testimony revealed that there were dozens of high-placed agents within the US working with the communist agenda to take over the world. They were right to be alarmed, though nowadays the Nazi narrative is so established that any association with them is immediately branded as beyond the pale, though not always correctly. (Which is where most of the mischief came from, truth be told.) What a mess!
And all this confusing entanglement continues to this day, now in Izzylandia and Ukraine. The West has been infiltrated by bad actors and keeps tearing itself apart following their treacherous diktats.
Offtopic.
Karl, I have struggled to contact you and I emailed you twice from the emailed posts about four days ago. Did you receive them?
Username : wondrousonkarlofi
I get so much substack related email notifications it's possible yours got lost within that flood. Give another try and I'll be mindful while clearing my inbox.
A very little known episode in history and full of contradictions.
Gehlen was not SS, he was a regular officer in the Wehrmacht. He was promoted to the head of Fremde Heer Ost at during the second half of WW2. A careful study of his work at that time (in combination with the SS intelligence services) reveal a very politicised but professional outfit. They underestimated Russian numbers by around 10%, but did identify about 99% of all known units. Their most famous failure was Bagration which was predicted to be a holding attack instead of the main event. This helped to created conditions for a steep rise in German losses in the last year of the war and ended up in the Reichstag.
After the war all the allies looted what had been Nazi Germany's assets - physical, financial and human.
Stalin's USSR was no paragon being a brutal totalitarian dictatorship. It had murdered and imprisoned millions of its own people and was busy similarly liquidating real and imaged opposition everywhere it controlled. Beria had collected all the ex Nazi scientists and equipment he could and was in charge of the Soviet nuclear bomb project. It is fasinating looking at the military balance c 1950. For what it is worth Beria's son, Sergei, claims that Stalin was planning an attack on NATO in 1953. He certainly had the means.
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence could see the contours of the Cold War forming. Gehlen was therefore a natural shoe in to western intelligence gathering about the USSR. The West might have been re-arming c 1950 (but not West Germany until 1956) but the Red Army never really disarmed. Geo-political necessity makes odd bedfellows.
This also included many many ex Nazi officers who wrote papers and briefed western militaries on fighting the Russians. From this first hand knowledge though, we in the west appear to have inherited a racist view of Russian capabilities and intentions. Much has Nazi roots. This certainly appears to be a problem in 2023 for the West.
There certainly was a partisan war against the Soviets in Eastern Galicia which went on until the early 1950's. Ineed Soviet troops were fired on in 1944 as they "liberated" the region, the most famous casualty being a Marshal (Malinkovsky?). This region was Polish until annexed in 1939 by Stalin in his agreement to attack and partition Poland (and other nations) with Hitler (and part of the Tsarist Empire until 1917). It is certainly the case that OSS was involved in this partisan war post 45. The NKVD were in many respects as viscious and numerous as the SS and any Banderite supporters would have stood no chance. It is arguable though that the Soviets formented the partisan war by their brutal and oppresive behaviour in that region between 39 and 41. There were it seems no good guys here.
The 16th Galician Division was not raised as an SS unit but army units were transferred wholesale to the SS. This should not be misunderstood. Most of these "Galician" army units were complicit in anti-partisan activities (ie nurdering civilians and burning villages) and in the final solution. They made poor combat soldiers and were nearly anihilated in the Battle for Brody in July 1944. The odd thing for me is why there were so many left to emigrate west after the war as most of the actual division suffered encirclement. It suggests a significantly larger organisation than just the fighting unit. The 200,000 number in the article indicates if correct a widescale political organisation.
When Putin first talked about de-Nazification I thought he had been on the Vodka. I now see I was under educated about the true nature of the Zelensky regime. However I think it a step too far to describe western nations as Nazi, even though they are allied with a truly wicked bunch in Ukraine. However these views of Russian inferiority appear to have infected the western establishment - military, political and in the media space. In the Cold War days we showed the USSR respect and feared them. Not so now it seems. And this really explains why our great and good ever thought that Ukraine might be able to defeat the Bear.