In an interview with the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet published today by Russia’s MFA, we learn many things, the most important of which is Erdogan’s incomprehensible position on Ukraine that’s as unethical, dishonorable as his position on Palestine, where today
I don’t share your negative opinion on Sergei Lavrov in this interview. I thought he demonstrated his usual masterful diplomatic skills. That’s part of his job and there’s no one better at it.
While others on the outside are free to express their personal feelings about Palestine, Israel, Turkey and Erdogan, he is not. Regardless of the subject, his expressed viewpoint must be one that advances (or does the least possible harm to) Russia’s interests. He’s not the judge of anyone; nor can he compel other countries and their leaders to act in certain ways. All Lavrov can do is be the interlocutor between his government and another, even when that other country or its leader has acted deceitfully, or worse. As such, assuming the governments are still in contact, there’s nothing to be gained by having your top diplomat trash the other party. That’s so American!
On Erdogan, Russia understands him perfectly. That’s why Vladimir Putin has had time to meet with the leaders of countries like Bourkino Faso and Mongolia, but not with Turkey’s president. Regardless of the pro forma comments by Lavrov regarding Turkey and BRICS+, Turkey has zero friends or good will within the organization. That could largely be Erdogan’s doing, but regardless, other BRICS countries have more reason to distrust Turkey than agree to it joining. But even though that’s true, there’s no reason for Lavrov to humiliate Turkey by saying so in public.
TIMELY VALUE OF PRESERVING MULTIPLE FACES: Richard Roskell & Karl Sanchez, well written. Humanity has the 'Obligation to protect' such as the Palestinian victims of over 100 years of Jewish, Israeli, Zionist genocide (UN Definition = 'Removing people from or destroying their means of livelihood + settler & state murder') & massacres.
Hence Russia & China's military & livelihood technical collaboration are lone actors protecting Iran & thereby Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Palestinian Authority & Hamas. Arming & technical assistance is the least of subversive protection against Israel's ongoing deliberate genocidal massacre of babies, children, women, elderly, handicapped & men.
I would like to see more 'honesty' as Karl proposes in openly stating the contradictions in an unproductive & damaging process.
We all recognize the wisdom of Russia & Lavrov's careful maneuverings around the Western multi-Trillionaire Oligarch US, Britain, France & Canadian Puppets' insane desire for Nuclear war. Palestine being the long coveted trade & people LAND-BRIDGE between the Mega-continents of Eurasia & Africa drives Oligarch & Zionist gluttony for power & control.
Given this road-block, Russia & China can best arm Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria with the best of weapons & Satellite-based Intelligence, training, munitions & supplies, along with healthy productive economies. The better Lebanon, Syria, Hezbollah & Hamas are armed & so perform in protecting & employing their people, will empower Jordan & Egypt societies & governments to follow the same path & realign with Russia & China to bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life. Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem & dozens of Palestinian Refugee camps are showing the world what is means to animate human strengths for sharing & caring together with the least of resources in RELATIONAL-ECONOMY. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/c-relational-economy
OPEN TO DIALOGUE, BUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT WITH A BIG STICK
3 branches of my family are Ashkenazi Jewish.
Israel for > 100 years of violent invasion, shows no sign of engaging the Palestinian people & governments with formal public, Both-sided, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogues, to achieve any kind of partnership.
Israelis under their Oligarch owners have always acted with violence & disregard for their status as immigrants & contempt. All diplomacy must be paired with public dialogue/debate to have any meaning. The public are always the final mediators.
TRUTH & RECONCILIATION
Along with these military 'Obligation to Protect' strategies, we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves in a Both-sides-now, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogue. With average citizens engaging, such as the Israeli government will have no choice but to engage officially. The Right & Obligation to Dialectic Resolution is part of all humanity's worldwide 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generating') COUNCIL PROCESS, (before the last 7000 years of colonial invasion, genocide & ecological destruction). All have the dialectic-right to free speech paired with the Dialectic Obligation to raise issues positive for understanding, agreement, Contract delineation or for Conflict Resolution. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/d-participatory-structure/1-both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
..." bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life...."
some of us don't think that is possible.. that is the problem staring the whole world in the face at present and it isn't a pretty picture, or one that seems possible to erase..
Agreed Protection for Palestinians comes first because Zionists, who have no truth, refuse to dialogue & are so consistently violent since invading. However no one gets off of planet earth, after committing such genocidal crimes for over 100 years without a thorough embarrassment, before the whole of humanity. Dialogue such as South Africa's TRUTH & RECONCILIATION is the best way to expose western Oligarch & their Zionist & Jewish puppet lies. Death is way too easy a way out. Colonialization started with the same lineage of war-mongers in Babylon 7000 years ago, destroyed those people & biospheres into desert & moved upstream to Assyria, then PHOENICIA (Kingdom-of-Israel + City-states of Tyr, Sidon, Byblos, Beirut 4000 to 0 BC). 4000 years the Phoenician empire invaded, stole & colonized from the whole Mediterranean (eg. Egypt, Carthage, Greece, Rome, Spain, France) & Black Sea (eg. Ashkenaz & Khazaria aka the reason 2 dual Israeli citizens: Poroshenko & Zelensky have been violently destabilizing ruling Ukraine since 2014 & before.
BLACK ACADEMICS ON JEWISH CAPITALISM & WEALTH BASED IN SLAVERY OVER 6 MILLENNIA SINCE KEY ROLE IN PHOENICIAN COLONIAL CONQUEST. 13 Sugar Jewish Plantation Colonies, Sephardic, Ashkenazi Jews as core of Slave Trade Christopher Columbus (Hebrew journals) as Morano Portuguese Jew starts Slave Trade, in 1498 5 ship expedition brought 600 Indians to Spain as slaves, previously as slave trader, Gold dealer in Africa Ghana, Gold Coast, Queen Isabella’s 3 Court Jewish Financiers Luis de Santangel, Abraham Zacuto, Don Isaac Abravanel. Curacao, Surinam Jodensavanne Zionist (Jew village Sugar Trade) Jan Pieterszoon Coen Chief Shareholder of the Dutch East & West Indian Companies centred in Netherlands, Oliver Cromwell & Menasseh Ben Israel Financier /c Dr Leonard Jeffries (NY City College) 100 million African Slaves stolen, Dr Tony Martin, Dr Aviva Ben-Ur, Stanley Mirviz, Cary Silverstein, Minister Louis Farrakhan (Jews Selling Blacks), Khallid Muhammad, Nation of Islam, Truth Terrorist 600 million Blacks slaved over 6000 years compared /c supposed 6 million Jews over 10 years, Reparations, Lehman Brothers, 75% of Jews were Slave Owners & prominent in Slave Trade Rothschild (Mississippi Cotton Trade to English mills) Secret Relationship between Blacks & jews Vol 1&2 by Rabbi Jacob Levin published by Nation of Islam, Rabbi Historian Dr Bertram W. Korn (75% of Slave Owners were Jews), Dr Abraham J. Peck, John Henrik Clarke, Jewish Academic Mafia, Dr. Harold Brackman 1600’s Slave Trading was Jewish Mercantile specialty, History of the Jews by Soloman Grayzel Principal Slave Traders in Europe, Middle-Ages, Dr Leonard E Barrett Sr Temple Univ. on Jews & Slavery, Brazil 19Nov’21 2h56m47s https://youtu.be/S3mr0rsNyGs
Turkiye is in a difficult position, possibly at the epicentre of WW3. I think it has to play an ambiguous role, and I consider Lavrov (and indeed the West also) understand this.
Your comment perfectly reflects my own reaction and saves me the trouble of having to type it out! Lavrov is not in the business of fanning flames or adding fuel to a fire and that's why he's been regarded for so long as one of the great diplomats of our time.
It's good that Russia has finally admitted Turkey's duplicity.
Regarding Russian policy on the Middle East, I believe that from a diplomatic point of view they try to keep a balance, whereas from a military point of view they have already taken a side... and it is the correct one, but they just do not want to trumpet it. Just to make it clear, I am referring to the "strategic partnership between Russia and Iran" - see my latest article on this topic: https://geopolitiq.substack.com/p/iran-beats-the-drums-of-war
Did you see the report about the Zionists floating the trial balloon of Russian mediation? I knew about that when I wrote. Russia shouldn't be a mediator since it ought to be a prosecutor. Larry Johnson was very outspoken on today's Judge's intel chat, https://judgenap.com/
The zionists are shameless; they expect that Putin will be swayed by some perceived buddy relationship with nuttyahoo? The arrogance is blinding. Still it will be interesting to watch Moscow's zionist lobby.
thanks karl... i don't agree with you on the topic of russias position on palestine and think it places all the responsibility on russia doing something when in fact, it is the usa that continues to sabotage any efforts at change in the UN and more generally.. but back to the topic at hand - erdogans incredible balancing act...
it seems to me erdogan likes to play both sides of the aisle, but he doesn't do it in a convincing way... the issue of idlib is a case in point... if he wants to be in the bed with the usa, it doesn't really work when the kurds are being used by the usa on a regular basis to keep him destabilized... i am sure russia is well aware of this too... nothing happens as quickly and as clearly as people would like, but putting the responsibility for all this needs to be spread around.. russia isn't perfect, but turkey and the usa are much less so as i see it and that can't be blamed on russia which is what seems implied here..
What I'm asking Russia to do is to be honest. Sure, it's trying, but the main question remains about moving the Genocidal Zionists out of the West Bank whose presence there is deemed illegal yet again. I suggest watching today's Judge Napolitano Friday Intel Chat. https://judgenap.com/
Was with you until you called out Lavrov for not addressing the Palestine issue. Russia is all in on International Law, and as far as the 2 state solution goes, that's all that has ever been ratified. So, what's the alternative? Military intervention? If yes, then why is that for Russia to resolve? And if yes are we all prepared for the potential outcome of a great powers conflict of the US backing Israel versus Russia.
I don't have an answer, but I don't blame lavrov for not having one either. The current set-up of the UNSC precludes any possible solution while the US, UK, FR and others continue to polish the turd that is Israel's genocide in Palestine.
Finally, Lavrov is a diplomat. His job is to find diplomatic solutions. He wants to work within the framework of the UN Charter, as he should, but, as above, that is now obviously dysfunctional and past its sell-by date. So rather than pointing the finger at Lavrov, why not China? Why not the slew of Muslim neighbors to Israel that with some exceptions continue to dance around the issue?
I've pointed my finger at all those actors, particularly the treasonous Arabs. What constrains Lavrov from saying the obvious? That's the main point that perhaps I wasn't as clear about as I could've. Crooke is a former diplomat and sure he has a degree of independence Lavrov doesn't enjoy, but at least he's come out as realistic about the situation. I also look at the Donbass genocide as a precedent for taking action, a genocide that wasn't nearly as obvious as Palestine's that when openly confronted with the evidence in a meeting of government in October 2021, Putin agreed genocide was indeed occurring there and something needed to be done. It took four months and a raft of legal maneuvers but a solution was found and acted upon. Yes, Palestine differs because of its geographic position, but is Russia a signatory to the Genocide Convention or not? And China and all the rest? The reported death toll is likely way understated and is perhaps as much as 200K just in Gaza. The reporter asked the two main questions that needed asking but gave Lavrov an exit which he still evaded. Yes, Lavrov's evaded questions before; however, this time I called him on it, although he'll never know about it.
I understand the "for" and the "against" very well and I also experience the rollercoaster of emotions. To be honest, I try not to think exclusively in terms of "good" and "not good" when it comes to Russia. Not even because I feel sympathy, even something like love, for this country. Russia will not liberate anyone. Russia is defending its interests. I have no illusions about that. Even in Germany there are many people who, in their desperation, dream of "liberation" by Russia. What's more, the totalitarianism, fascism is becoming more and more established. F. Merz is being discussed as the next chancellor. Black Rock sends its regards. I think this dream is wishful thinking.
On the other hand, we have to assume that this world war is about the existential question. I don't believe that we, the public, are being told what is happening behind the scenes. Yes, I even think that Russia itself is partly engaged in disinformation under the observation of the enemy. Let's call it deceiving the enemy.
One question -'I do not believe that we the public are being told what happens...'
By definition this is true and has to be, otherwise there would be so such thing as diplomacy, nor governance
What the RF, and Lavrov, tells the world is not the whole truth etc, but is not disinformation - there is no need purposely to mislead those who you understand and who you treat with diplomacy
As opposed to those who deal with the world by means of moral judgements
What I mean is that Russia does not see itself as the savior of the world. It is always primarily concerned with its own interests. Russia also has its own interests with regard to the Middle East and Central Asia. I don't dare to judge why Russia does or doesn't do this or that. That was the second point I made. We do not know what is happening behind the scenes and what intelligence information is available. As the name suggests, we are dealing with secrets. And of course Russia also uses deception. Russia will not tell its enemies via the media what plans Russia is pursuing.
What really struck me is that Mahmoud Abbas is being supported by Russia. I don't know what that means.
Agreed about Abbas and Russia's interests. I'm somewhat happy I employed a seemingly negative assessment of Lavrov that sparked a much better series of comments than have ever appeared at the Gym. There was an interesting bit noted by Larry Johnson in last Friday's chat with McGovern and Napolitano related to how Arafat after agreeing learned over time that he'd been duped by the Clintonites and turned to opposing them for which he was poisoned and eliminated. Another Q: Why did the Zionists just endorse Russia as their choice as mediator? Medvedev said some interesting things in his RT interview, which I need to find time to finish watching.
Quote: "I consider Turkey to be a quasi-enemy nation"
Quote: "Lavrov’s had a brilliant career, but Russia’s Palestine policy is tarnishing that record and must be solved so that shame doesn’t become his legacy."
Agreed. A question that came to mind for me was, "How many Israeli-supporting jews have Lavrov's ear in his office?
I ask because only a few weeks ago I read an article that supposedly quoted Lavrov in which he made a few concerning statements about the venality of Hamas. It wasn't remotely diplomatic language. I regret not saving the article. Of course we need to consider the fact that the writer may have not been as honest as he might have been because of his own political agenda.
Still, when taken beside the rest of Lavrov's inaction concerning Israel's criminal assaults on the innocent....it should be a red flag.
...and for the record - I've been a huge fan of Lavrov for decades. I'm hoping he's not simply burnt out by the never-ending craziness he's forced to deal with daily.
I too have had a lot of respect for Lavrov for years.
Very slowly Russia and China are moving closer to Resistance Axis position on the settler colony in the Levant and on sovereignty of Syria. It is the Resistance Axis which has military supremacy in the region and which will determine the future of Southwest Asia, the most geopolitically significant region of the world.
Much impoverished Yemen is able to disrupt much of import export of Israhell via sealane, and much bigger nuclear power Russia and its brother China cannot do diddle stopping the palestine genocide??? Not even economic sanctions??? Its ok your neighbor get slaughter as long as you make money???
There's indeed a mystery that appears central to this conflict, but we aren't privy to it. Perhaps when the archives are opened in 2100 some historian will finally expose it.
But this assumes that RF intervention can stop the Israelis, nor provoke the US into some deadly counter manouever
Should the RF go it alone?
The interventions you appear to favour are very typically US style, sanctions or, I guess peace keeping forces and so on
Is there any plan, evidence or reason, which allows anyone to think that a cease fire or any kind of halt, or any kind of peace, can be imposed or negotiated with the Israel US tandem?
By anyone? or by any combination of RF China BRICS or.......
The Gym's consensus is that some sort of force must be applied to force the Zionists to halt, and the agents currently applying force are the Resistance and the global BDS campaign. Let's hypothesize the UNSC approves a Chapter 7 intervention a la Korea, what nations would fill out that force?
The RF, as I think, has consistently ....I mean in recent times with VVP , advocated a UN solution to conflicts
The UN is unlikely to do so with any effect in this case, because of the US Security Council veto
It is plausible to suppose that the RF has been in constant communication with Israel, and recomminding less aggressive actions, or even more, cease fires, etc- as other countries must be
But to expect Lavrov to speak up in the way you suggest, cannot advance these talks, but will rather cease them
That there is no easy process, not even any difficult process yet imaginable which retains the mark of reasonable and rational actions, or of even reasonable not overwhelming force
That the resistance gradually wear down both the US and Israel is by far the result it is most reasonable to suppose, and the only which holds any possibility of long term peace
I think you are expecting far too much of Lavrov and the RF
What's happening in Palestine is Zionist and US POLICY, which millions of us have protested over the decades. The so-called peace deals have always been sops to the public and not anything to do with solving the problem. If Arafat had known the underlying intent of the Camp David Accords, he would never have agreed. Once he earned of their duplicity, he went into active opposition which is why he was poisoned. The Outlaw US Empire and its Zionist ally have NEVER wanted peace or an equitable settlement to reign in the Levant, and that policy continues. Lavrov has diplomatically said as much already. The regional situation is very convoluted and stretches beyond the Levant.
Agree with your view on Lavrov and Russia ducking the Palestine issue, as I've said before. Most people are still finding excuses for that, but I think that becomes less tenable the longer this buildup to war continues.
This phrase by Lavrov "the creation of threats to Russia's vital security interests" I believe is a code word for those Aegis Ashore installations in Poland and Romania, which Putin has talked about on several occasions.
"While geographically, it makes great sense to include Turkey in BRICS, politically it doesn’t whatsoever given Erdogan’s extensive unpredictability"
BRICS will always have the issue that governments change, by election or US coup, todays friendly country can be tomorrow's enemy. Brazil might be a case in point.
It's something I've pondered; the loyalty of comprador elites comes down to the balance of money and power. The US is declining but can still play whack-a-mole pressuring vassals who will nibble or run for cheese when it's offered, e.g. China. It appears that the west is now all stick and no carrot and that's not a winning formula.
A fruitful and balanced discussion of these ‘puzzles with dilemma characteristics’. Propositions with contradictory presuppositions can’t be resolved rationally. A logical system with mutually contradictory axioms can’t have true or self-consistent theorems derived in it.
“… we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves …” Who is “we”? Which mice are going to put the bell around the cat’s neck? - to allow the mice to feed freely on cheese, live normally.
Perhaps the only solution to this impasse is to have a unitary Palestinian state with Israel as a self-administered province within it under the political constraint that all its people being formally equal. [Every citizen is chosen] Not Palestine as a vassal province of Greater Israel. Stating this seemingly impossible possibility explicitly might jog the world a few steps towards it.
If Zionist Jews don’t own and control Jewish members of the diaspora, the outliers might disassociate themselves overtly from Zionist Israel.
The practical means of achieving any of this are the issue. There’s no mutualist solution to diplomacy by assassination and atrocity. There’s no resolution from inside a blood-feud of compulsive exchanges of atrocities.
The principle of requisite variety’ [W Ross Ashby 1956] posits that the greater the variety available to a communicator, the greater the regulation of the channel of communication. If you respond to provocation within the channel the provoker is regulating you. [p vii: “… the end has been throughout to make clear what principles must be followed when one attempts to restore normal function to a sick organism that is, …, of fearful complexity.”]
i'm reminded of the smo's first winter with its urgency to react, to charge ahead in hot certainty, shouting a spade's a spade fer ahh that. but war is like no other art, it's neither novel nor filmy grand illusion, it inhales diplomacy & exhales miracles.
victory is the result of the rarest ideas achieving more than imagined possible. defeat, ahh, the devastation of the washed up facing the kingdom come of nevermore & all gone.
we are witnessing miracles unfold. within GENOCIDE!
what should be impossible has become reality. armageddon. apocalypse. how can mere men restore & create a new eden on earth? yet, we are blessed---amongst the beasts & devils there are such men as lavrov, as putin, Xi, the legions, millions marching in yemen, all working with every quirk & quark of their soul to guide us from the clutches of horrific demonic depravity to a safe shore.
lavrov with all his might never takes his eye off the goal. that much we know. putin, xi hold fast to the star. we fortunate few aware of the miracle unfolding can do no more than hold fast as sinwar to his stick.
Places that don't have presidents 11-1-2024, in order of Impotenece ....
1. scAmerica ScKamala bidendiaper clowns
2. Elenskies fUkraine, plus curser starmer stutter UK, micro macrolean, so basically Europea
3. South of Europe, the former short lived Isra Hell, like Humpty Dumpty. Had a good fall. All the kings horsies and Queen Charles and Justine turdeau, even my dad Vlad, step on eggshells and break them into more pieces under feet for the boobie Bibi traps, no way to tape that state into cohesion from the self imposed genosuicide....
I don’t share your negative opinion on Sergei Lavrov in this interview. I thought he demonstrated his usual masterful diplomatic skills. That’s part of his job and there’s no one better at it.
While others on the outside are free to express their personal feelings about Palestine, Israel, Turkey and Erdogan, he is not. Regardless of the subject, his expressed viewpoint must be one that advances (or does the least possible harm to) Russia’s interests. He’s not the judge of anyone; nor can he compel other countries and their leaders to act in certain ways. All Lavrov can do is be the interlocutor between his government and another, even when that other country or its leader has acted deceitfully, or worse. As such, assuming the governments are still in contact, there’s nothing to be gained by having your top diplomat trash the other party. That’s so American!
On Erdogan, Russia understands him perfectly. That’s why Vladimir Putin has had time to meet with the leaders of countries like Bourkino Faso and Mongolia, but not with Turkey’s president. Regardless of the pro forma comments by Lavrov regarding Turkey and BRICS+, Turkey has zero friends or good will within the organization. That could largely be Erdogan’s doing, but regardless, other BRICS countries have more reason to distrust Turkey than agree to it joining. But even though that’s true, there’s no reason for Lavrov to humiliate Turkey by saying so in public.
Again, the criticism is of Russia's policy, not Lavrov specifically. Although he did clearly evade the question at issue.
TIMELY VALUE OF PRESERVING MULTIPLE FACES: Richard Roskell & Karl Sanchez, well written. Humanity has the 'Obligation to protect' such as the Palestinian victims of over 100 years of Jewish, Israeli, Zionist genocide (UN Definition = 'Removing people from or destroying their means of livelihood + settler & state murder') & massacres.
Hence Russia & China's military & livelihood technical collaboration are lone actors protecting Iran & thereby Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Palestinian Authority & Hamas. Arming & technical assistance is the least of subversive protection against Israel's ongoing deliberate genocidal massacre of babies, children, women, elderly, handicapped & men.
I would like to see more 'honesty' as Karl proposes in openly stating the contradictions in an unproductive & damaging process.
We all recognize the wisdom of Russia & Lavrov's careful maneuverings around the Western multi-Trillionaire Oligarch US, Britain, France & Canadian Puppets' insane desire for Nuclear war. Palestine being the long coveted trade & people LAND-BRIDGE between the Mega-continents of Eurasia & Africa drives Oligarch & Zionist gluttony for power & control.
Given this road-block, Russia & China can best arm Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria with the best of weapons & Satellite-based Intelligence, training, munitions & supplies, along with healthy productive economies. The better Lebanon, Syria, Hezbollah & Hamas are armed & so perform in protecting & employing their people, will empower Jordan & Egypt societies & governments to follow the same path & realign with Russia & China to bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life. Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem & dozens of Palestinian Refugee camps are showing the world what is means to animate human strengths for sharing & caring together with the least of resources in RELATIONAL-ECONOMY. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/c-relational-economy
OPEN TO DIALOGUE, BUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT WITH A BIG STICK
3 branches of my family are Ashkenazi Jewish.
Israel for > 100 years of violent invasion, shows no sign of engaging the Palestinian people & governments with formal public, Both-sided, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogues, to achieve any kind of partnership.
Israelis under their Oligarch owners have always acted with violence & disregard for their status as immigrants & contempt. All diplomacy must be paired with public dialogue/debate to have any meaning. The public are always the final mediators.
TRUTH & RECONCILIATION
Along with these military 'Obligation to Protect' strategies, we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves in a Both-sides-now, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogue. With average citizens engaging, such as the Israeli government will have no choice but to engage officially. The Right & Obligation to Dialectic Resolution is part of all humanity's worldwide 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generating') COUNCIL PROCESS, (before the last 7000 years of colonial invasion, genocide & ecological destruction). All have the dialectic-right to free speech paired with the Dialectic Obligation to raise issues positive for understanding, agreement, Contract delineation or for Conflict Resolution. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/d-participatory-structure/1-both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
..." bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life...."
some of us don't think that is possible.. that is the problem staring the whole world in the face at present and it isn't a pretty picture, or one that seems possible to erase..
James, 7000 YEARS OF UNRAVELLING ZIONIST LIES
Agreed Protection for Palestinians comes first because Zionists, who have no truth, refuse to dialogue & are so consistently violent since invading. However no one gets off of planet earth, after committing such genocidal crimes for over 100 years without a thorough embarrassment, before the whole of humanity. Dialogue such as South Africa's TRUTH & RECONCILIATION is the best way to expose western Oligarch & their Zionist & Jewish puppet lies. Death is way too easy a way out. Colonialization started with the same lineage of war-mongers in Babylon 7000 years ago, destroyed those people & biospheres into desert & moved upstream to Assyria, then PHOENICIA (Kingdom-of-Israel + City-states of Tyr, Sidon, Byblos, Beirut 4000 to 0 BC). 4000 years the Phoenician empire invaded, stole & colonized from the whole Mediterranean (eg. Egypt, Carthage, Greece, Rome, Spain, France) & Black Sea (eg. Ashkenaz & Khazaria aka the reason 2 dual Israeli citizens: Poroshenko & Zelensky have been violently destabilizing ruling Ukraine since 2014 & before.
BLACK ACADEMICS ON JEWISH CAPITALISM & WEALTH BASED IN SLAVERY OVER 6 MILLENNIA SINCE KEY ROLE IN PHOENICIAN COLONIAL CONQUEST. 13 Sugar Jewish Plantation Colonies, Sephardic, Ashkenazi Jews as core of Slave Trade Christopher Columbus (Hebrew journals) as Morano Portuguese Jew starts Slave Trade, in 1498 5 ship expedition brought 600 Indians to Spain as slaves, previously as slave trader, Gold dealer in Africa Ghana, Gold Coast, Queen Isabella’s 3 Court Jewish Financiers Luis de Santangel, Abraham Zacuto, Don Isaac Abravanel. Curacao, Surinam Jodensavanne Zionist (Jew village Sugar Trade) Jan Pieterszoon Coen Chief Shareholder of the Dutch East & West Indian Companies centred in Netherlands, Oliver Cromwell & Menasseh Ben Israel Financier /c Dr Leonard Jeffries (NY City College) 100 million African Slaves stolen, Dr Tony Martin, Dr Aviva Ben-Ur, Stanley Mirviz, Cary Silverstein, Minister Louis Farrakhan (Jews Selling Blacks), Khallid Muhammad, Nation of Islam, Truth Terrorist 600 million Blacks slaved over 6000 years compared /c supposed 6 million Jews over 10 years, Reparations, Lehman Brothers, 75% of Jews were Slave Owners & prominent in Slave Trade Rothschild (Mississippi Cotton Trade to English mills) Secret Relationship between Blacks & jews Vol 1&2 by Rabbi Jacob Levin published by Nation of Islam, Rabbi Historian Dr Bertram W. Korn (75% of Slave Owners were Jews), Dr Abraham J. Peck, John Henrik Clarke, Jewish Academic Mafia, Dr. Harold Brackman 1600’s Slave Trading was Jewish Mercantile specialty, History of the Jews by Soloman Grayzel Principal Slave Traders in Europe, Middle-Ages, Dr Leonard E Barrett Sr Temple Univ. on Jews & Slavery, Brazil 19Nov’21 2h56m47s https://youtu.be/S3mr0rsNyGs
Turkiye is in a difficult position, possibly at the epicentre of WW3. I think it has to play an ambiguous role, and I consider Lavrov (and indeed the West also) understand this.
On point! Well said.
Very well said, Richard Roskell.
Your comment perfectly reflects my own reaction and saves me the trouble of having to type it out! Lavrov is not in the business of fanning flames or adding fuel to a fire and that's why he's been regarded for so long as one of the great diplomats of our time.
Funny, I'm surprised to hear that Erdogan only has two faces.
He's more akin to the old 8-Ball prediction toy as you shake it and a different answer appears.
It's good that Russia has finally admitted Turkey's duplicity.
Regarding Russian policy on the Middle East, I believe that from a diplomatic point of view they try to keep a balance, whereas from a military point of view they have already taken a side... and it is the correct one, but they just do not want to trumpet it. Just to make it clear, I am referring to the "strategic partnership between Russia and Iran" - see my latest article on this topic: https://geopolitiq.substack.com/p/iran-beats-the-drums-of-war
Did you see the report about the Zionists floating the trial balloon of Russian mediation? I knew about that when I wrote. Russia shouldn't be a mediator since it ought to be a prosecutor. Larry Johnson was very outspoken on today's Judge's intel chat, https://judgenap.com/
The zionists are shameless; they expect that Putin will be swayed by some perceived buddy relationship with nuttyahoo? The arrogance is blinding. Still it will be interesting to watch Moscow's zionist lobby.
the arrogance is only coming from one side and it ain't russia either..
it's play acting.. the world of diplomacy is a whole other world.... amercians are typically outspoken..
thanks karl... i don't agree with you on the topic of russias position on palestine and think it places all the responsibility on russia doing something when in fact, it is the usa that continues to sabotage any efforts at change in the UN and more generally.. but back to the topic at hand - erdogans incredible balancing act...
it seems to me erdogan likes to play both sides of the aisle, but he doesn't do it in a convincing way... the issue of idlib is a case in point... if he wants to be in the bed with the usa, it doesn't really work when the kurds are being used by the usa on a regular basis to keep him destabilized... i am sure russia is well aware of this too... nothing happens as quickly and as clearly as people would like, but putting the responsibility for all this needs to be spread around.. russia isn't perfect, but turkey and the usa are much less so as i see it and that can't be blamed on russia which is what seems implied here..
What I'm asking Russia to do is to be honest. Sure, it's trying, but the main question remains about moving the Genocidal Zionists out of the West Bank whose presence there is deemed illegal yet again. I suggest watching today's Judge Napolitano Friday Intel Chat. https://judgenap.com/
thanks karl...
Cheers Karl.
Was with you until you called out Lavrov for not addressing the Palestine issue. Russia is all in on International Law, and as far as the 2 state solution goes, that's all that has ever been ratified. So, what's the alternative? Military intervention? If yes, then why is that for Russia to resolve? And if yes are we all prepared for the potential outcome of a great powers conflict of the US backing Israel versus Russia.
I don't have an answer, but I don't blame lavrov for not having one either. The current set-up of the UNSC precludes any possible solution while the US, UK, FR and others continue to polish the turd that is Israel's genocide in Palestine.
Finally, Lavrov is a diplomat. His job is to find diplomatic solutions. He wants to work within the framework of the UN Charter, as he should, but, as above, that is now obviously dysfunctional and past its sell-by date. So rather than pointing the finger at Lavrov, why not China? Why not the slew of Muslim neighbors to Israel that with some exceptions continue to dance around the issue?
I've pointed my finger at all those actors, particularly the treasonous Arabs. What constrains Lavrov from saying the obvious? That's the main point that perhaps I wasn't as clear about as I could've. Crooke is a former diplomat and sure he has a degree of independence Lavrov doesn't enjoy, but at least he's come out as realistic about the situation. I also look at the Donbass genocide as a precedent for taking action, a genocide that wasn't nearly as obvious as Palestine's that when openly confronted with the evidence in a meeting of government in October 2021, Putin agreed genocide was indeed occurring there and something needed to be done. It took four months and a raft of legal maneuvers but a solution was found and acted upon. Yes, Palestine differs because of its geographic position, but is Russia a signatory to the Genocide Convention or not? And China and all the rest? The reported death toll is likely way understated and is perhaps as much as 200K just in Gaza. The reporter asked the two main questions that needed asking but gave Lavrov an exit which he still evaded. Yes, Lavrov's evaded questions before; however, this time I called him on it, although he'll never know about it.
I understand the "for" and the "against" very well and I also experience the rollercoaster of emotions. To be honest, I try not to think exclusively in terms of "good" and "not good" when it comes to Russia. Not even because I feel sympathy, even something like love, for this country. Russia will not liberate anyone. Russia is defending its interests. I have no illusions about that. Even in Germany there are many people who, in their desperation, dream of "liberation" by Russia. What's more, the totalitarianism, fascism is becoming more and more established. F. Merz is being discussed as the next chancellor. Black Rock sends its regards. I think this dream is wishful thinking.
On the other hand, we have to assume that this world war is about the existential question. I don't believe that we, the public, are being told what is happening behind the scenes. Yes, I even think that Russia itself is partly engaged in disinformation under the observation of the enemy. Let's call it deceiving the enemy.
Lavrov is doing what diplomats do, diplomacy.
Your even handed comment is welcome
One question -'I do not believe that we the public are being told what happens...'
By definition this is true and has to be, otherwise there would be so such thing as diplomacy, nor governance
What the RF, and Lavrov, tells the world is not the whole truth etc, but is not disinformation - there is no need purposely to mislead those who you understand and who you treat with diplomacy
As opposed to those who deal with the world by means of moral judgements
Who then can justify almost anything
What I mean is that Russia does not see itself as the savior of the world. It is always primarily concerned with its own interests. Russia also has its own interests with regard to the Middle East and Central Asia. I don't dare to judge why Russia does or doesn't do this or that. That was the second point I made. We do not know what is happening behind the scenes and what intelligence information is available. As the name suggests, we are dealing with secrets. And of course Russia also uses deception. Russia will not tell its enemies via the media what plans Russia is pursuing.
What really struck me is that Mahmoud Abbas is being supported by Russia. I don't know what that means.
Agreed about Abbas and Russia's interests. I'm somewhat happy I employed a seemingly negative assessment of Lavrov that sparked a much better series of comments than have ever appeared at the Gym. There was an interesting bit noted by Larry Johnson in last Friday's chat with McGovern and Napolitano related to how Arafat after agreeing learned over time that he'd been duped by the Clintonites and turned to opposing them for which he was poisoned and eliminated. Another Q: Why did the Zionists just endorse Russia as their choice as mediator? Medvedev said some interesting things in his RT interview, which I need to find time to finish watching.
Quote: "I consider Turkey to be a quasi-enemy nation"
Quote: "Lavrov’s had a brilliant career, but Russia’s Palestine policy is tarnishing that record and must be solved so that shame doesn’t become his legacy."
I agree fully with your conclusions!
Agreed. A question that came to mind for me was, "How many Israeli-supporting jews have Lavrov's ear in his office?
I ask because only a few weeks ago I read an article that supposedly quoted Lavrov in which he made a few concerning statements about the venality of Hamas. It wasn't remotely diplomatic language. I regret not saving the article. Of course we need to consider the fact that the writer may have not been as honest as he might have been because of his own political agenda.
Still, when taken beside the rest of Lavrov's inaction concerning Israel's criminal assaults on the innocent....it should be a red flag.
...and for the record - I've been a huge fan of Lavrov for decades. I'm hoping he's not simply burnt out by the never-ending craziness he's forced to deal with daily.
Good point about infiltration of his office.
I too have had a lot of respect for Lavrov for years.
Very slowly Russia and China are moving closer to Resistance Axis position on the settler colony in the Levant and on sovereignty of Syria. It is the Resistance Axis which has military supremacy in the region and which will determine the future of Southwest Asia, the most geopolitically significant region of the world.
https://fadilama.substack.com/p/showdown-at-sunset
https://fadilama.substack.com/p/israel-the-jewish-settler-colony
Much impoverished Yemen is able to disrupt much of import export of Israhell via sealane, and much bigger nuclear power Russia and its brother China cannot do diddle stopping the palestine genocide??? Not even economic sanctions??? Its ok your neighbor get slaughter as long as you make money???
There's indeed a mystery that appears central to this conflict, but we aren't privy to it. Perhaps when the archives are opened in 2100 some historian will finally expose it.
Karl as others I think you are overly harsh on both Lavrov and the RF policy towards Turkey
One shared, as far as one can see by China - presumably the US and the EU are also frustrated
To adopt a policy based on morality would not be useful
Gradually to reel him and the country in would be
People may criticise VVP for spending so many years trying to reach an agreement with Bush and the US, until he came out with it at Munich 2007
Would you have so spoken then, would you so speak now
Lavrov filled in for him Munich 2008 - I guess that now he speaks closely to what VVP would say
They are looking to the après Erdogan, and they are aligning with China's leadership, maybe even with Modi too
Patience
Yes, patience indeed. But that method is allowing the Zionists to kill more and more innocents; thus, the horns of the dilemma.
But this assumes that RF intervention can stop the Israelis, nor provoke the US into some deadly counter manouever
Should the RF go it alone?
The interventions you appear to favour are very typically US style, sanctions or, I guess peace keeping forces and so on
Is there any plan, evidence or reason, which allows anyone to think that a cease fire or any kind of halt, or any kind of peace, can be imposed or negotiated with the Israel US tandem?
By anyone? or by any combination of RF China BRICS or.......
The Gym's consensus is that some sort of force must be applied to force the Zionists to halt, and the agents currently applying force are the Resistance and the global BDS campaign. Let's hypothesize the UNSC approves a Chapter 7 intervention a la Korea, what nations would fill out that force?
The RF, as I think, has consistently ....I mean in recent times with VVP , advocated a UN solution to conflicts
The UN is unlikely to do so with any effect in this case, because of the US Security Council veto
It is plausible to suppose that the RF has been in constant communication with Israel, and recomminding less aggressive actions, or even more, cease fires, etc- as other countries must be
But to expect Lavrov to speak up in the way you suggest, cannot advance these talks, but will rather cease them
That there is no easy process, not even any difficult process yet imaginable which retains the mark of reasonable and rational actions, or of even reasonable not overwhelming force
That the resistance gradually wear down both the US and Israel is by far the result it is most reasonable to suppose, and the only which holds any possibility of long term peace
I think you are expecting far too much of Lavrov and the RF
And far too little of the US and Israel
What's happening in Palestine is Zionist and US POLICY, which millions of us have protested over the decades. The so-called peace deals have always been sops to the public and not anything to do with solving the problem. If Arafat had known the underlying intent of the Camp David Accords, he would never have agreed. Once he earned of their duplicity, he went into active opposition which is why he was poisoned. The Outlaw US Empire and its Zionist ally have NEVER wanted peace or an equitable settlement to reign in the Levant, and that policy continues. Lavrov has diplomatically said as much already. The regional situation is very convoluted and stretches beyond the Levant.
I suggest reading this short essay by Marat Khairulen as it explains some other issues that contribute to the mess, https://maratkhairullin.substack.com/p/we-must-remember
Agree with your view on Lavrov and Russia ducking the Palestine issue, as I've said before. Most people are still finding excuses for that, but I think that becomes less tenable the longer this buildup to war continues.
This phrase by Lavrov "the creation of threats to Russia's vital security interests" I believe is a code word for those Aegis Ashore installations in Poland and Romania, which Putin has talked about on several occasions.
"While geographically, it makes great sense to include Turkey in BRICS, politically it doesn’t whatsoever given Erdogan’s extensive unpredictability"
BRICS will always have the issue that governments change, by election or US coup, todays friendly country can be tomorrow's enemy. Brazil might be a case in point.
Brazil already was with Bolsonaro.
It's something I've pondered; the loyalty of comprador elites comes down to the balance of money and power. The US is declining but can still play whack-a-mole pressuring vassals who will nibble or run for cheese when it's offered, e.g. China. It appears that the west is now all stick and no carrot and that's not a winning formula.
A fruitful and balanced discussion of these ‘puzzles with dilemma characteristics’. Propositions with contradictory presuppositions can’t be resolved rationally. A logical system with mutually contradictory axioms can’t have true or self-consistent theorems derived in it.
“… we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves …” Who is “we”? Which mice are going to put the bell around the cat’s neck? - to allow the mice to feed freely on cheese, live normally.
Perhaps the only solution to this impasse is to have a unitary Palestinian state with Israel as a self-administered province within it under the political constraint that all its people being formally equal. [Every citizen is chosen] Not Palestine as a vassal province of Greater Israel. Stating this seemingly impossible possibility explicitly might jog the world a few steps towards it.
If Zionist Jews don’t own and control Jewish members of the diaspora, the outliers might disassociate themselves overtly from Zionist Israel.
The practical means of achieving any of this are the issue. There’s no mutualist solution to diplomacy by assassination and atrocity. There’s no resolution from inside a blood-feud of compulsive exchanges of atrocities.
The principle of requisite variety’ [W Ross Ashby 1956] posits that the greater the variety available to a communicator, the greater the regulation of the channel of communication. If you respond to provocation within the channel the provoker is regulating you. [p vii: “… the end has been throughout to make clear what principles must be followed when one attempts to restore normal function to a sick organism that is, …, of fearful complexity.”]
thank you, dr. karl.
i'm reminded of the smo's first winter with its urgency to react, to charge ahead in hot certainty, shouting a spade's a spade fer ahh that. but war is like no other art, it's neither novel nor filmy grand illusion, it inhales diplomacy & exhales miracles.
victory is the result of the rarest ideas achieving more than imagined possible. defeat, ahh, the devastation of the washed up facing the kingdom come of nevermore & all gone.
we are witnessing miracles unfold. within GENOCIDE!
what should be impossible has become reality. armageddon. apocalypse. how can mere men restore & create a new eden on earth? yet, we are blessed---amongst the beasts & devils there are such men as lavrov, as putin, Xi, the legions, millions marching in yemen, all working with every quirk & quark of their soul to guide us from the clutches of horrific demonic depravity to a safe shore.
lavrov with all his might never takes his eye off the goal. that much we know. putin, xi hold fast to the star. we fortunate few aware of the miracle unfolding can do no more than hold fast as sinwar to his stick.
Places that don't have presidents 11-1-2024, in order of Impotenece ....
1. scAmerica ScKamala bidendiaper clowns
2. Elenskies fUkraine, plus curser starmer stutter UK, micro macrolean, so basically Europea
3. South of Europe, the former short lived Isra Hell, like Humpty Dumpty. Had a good fall. All the kings horsies and Queen Charles and Justine turdeau, even my dad Vlad, step on eggshells and break them into more pieces under feet for the boobie Bibi traps, no way to tape that state into cohesion from the self imposed genosuicide....