In an interview with the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet published today by Russia’s MFA, we learn many things, the most important of which is Erdogan’s incomprehensible position on Ukraine that’s as unethical, dishonorable as his position on Palestine, where today
I don’t share your negative opinion on Sergei Lavrov in this interview. I thought he demonstrated his usual masterful diplomatic skills. That’s part of his job and there’s no one better at it.
While others on the outside are free to express their personal feelings about Palestine, Israel, Turkey and Erdogan, he is not. Regardless of the subject, his expressed viewpoint must be one that advances (or does the least possible harm to) Russia’s interests. He’s not the judge of anyone; nor can he compel other countries and their leaders to act in certain ways. All Lavrov can do is be the interlocutor between his government and another, even when that other country or its leader has acted deceitfully, or worse. As such, assuming the governments are still in contact, there’s nothing to be gained by having your top diplomat trash the other party. That’s so American!
On Erdogan, Russia understands him perfectly. That’s why Vladimir Putin has had time to meet with the leaders of countries like Bourkino Faso and Mongolia, but not with Turkey’s president. Regardless of the pro forma comments by Lavrov regarding Turkey and BRICS+, Turkey has zero friends or good will within the organization. That could largely be Erdogan’s doing, but regardless, other BRICS countries have more reason to distrust Turkey than agree to it joining. But even though that’s true, there’s no reason for Lavrov to humiliate Turkey by saying so in public.
TIMELY VALUE OF PRESERVING MULTIPLE FACES: Richard Roskell & Karl Sanchez, well written. Humanity has the 'Obligation to protect' such as the Palestinian victims of over 100 years of Jewish, Israeli, Zionist genocide (UN Definition = 'Removing people from or destroying their means of livelihood + settler & state murder') & massacres.
Hence Russia & China's military & livelihood technical collaboration are lone actors protecting Iran & thereby Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Palestinian Authority & Hamas. Arming & technical assistance is the least of subversive protection against Israel's ongoing deliberate genocidal massacre of babies, children, women, elderly, handicapped & men.
I would like to see more 'honesty' as Karl proposes in openly stating the contradictions in an unproductive & damaging process.
We all recognize the wisdom of Russia & Lavrov's careful maneuverings around the Western multi-Trillionaire Oligarch US, Britain, France & Canadian Puppets' insane desire for Nuclear war. Palestine being the long coveted trade & people LAND-BRIDGE between the Mega-continents of Eurasia & Africa drives Oligarch & Zionist gluttony for power & control.
Given this road-block, Russia & China can best arm Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria with the best of weapons & Satellite-based Intelligence, training, munitions & supplies, along with healthy productive economies. The better Lebanon, Syria, Hezbollah & Hamas are armed & so perform in protecting & employing their people, will empower Jordan & Egypt societies & governments to follow the same path & realign with Russia & China to bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life. Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem & dozens of Palestinian Refugee camps are showing the world what is means to animate human strengths for sharing & caring together with the least of resources in RELATIONAL-ECONOMY. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/c-relational-economy
OPEN TO DIALOGUE, BUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT WITH A BIG STICK
3 branches of my family are Ashkenazi Jewish.
Israel for > 100 years of violent invasion, shows no sign of engaging the Palestinian people & governments with formal public, Both-sided, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogues, to achieve any kind of partnership.
Israelis under their Oligarch owners have always acted with violence & disregard for their status as immigrants & contempt. All diplomacy must be paired with public dialogue/debate to have any meaning. The public are always the final mediators.
TRUTH & RECONCILIATION
Along with these military 'Obligation to Protect' strategies, we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves in a Both-sides-now, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogue. With average citizens engaging, such as the Israeli government will have no choice but to engage officially. The Right & Obligation to Dialectic Resolution is part of all humanity's worldwide 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generating') COUNCIL PROCESS, (before the last 7000 years of colonial invasion, genocide & ecological destruction). All have the dialectic-right to free speech paired with the Dialectic Obligation to raise issues positive for understanding, agreement, Contract delineation or for Conflict Resolution. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/d-participatory-structure/1-both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
It's good that Russia has finally admitted Turkey's duplicity.
Regarding Russian policy on the Middle East, I believe that from a diplomatic point of view they try to keep a balance, whereas from a military point of view they have already taken a side... and it is the correct one, but they just do not want to trumpet it. Just to make it clear, I am referring to the "strategic partnership between Russia and Iran" - see my latest article on this topic: https://geopolitiq.substack.com/p/iran-beats-the-drums-of-war
Did you see the report about the Zionists floating the trial balloon of Russian mediation? I knew about that when I wrote. Russia shouldn't be a mediator since it ought to be a prosecutor. Larry Johnson was very outspoken on today's Judge's intel chat, https://judgenap.com/
The zionists are shameless; they expect that Putin will be swayed by some perceived buddy relationship with nuttyahoo? The arrogance is blinding. Still it will be interesting to watch Moscow's zionist lobby.
thanks karl... i don't agree with you on the topic of russias position on palestine and think it places all the responsibility on russia doing something when in fact, it is the usa that continues to sabotage any efforts at change in the UN and more generally.. but back to the topic at hand - erdogans incredible balancing act...
it seems to me erdogan likes to play both sides of the aisle, but he doesn't do it in a convincing way... the issue of idlib is a case in point... if he wants to be in the bed with the usa, it doesn't really work when the kurds are being used by the usa on a regular basis to keep him destabilized... i am sure russia is well aware of this too... nothing happens as quickly and as clearly as people would like, but putting the responsibility for all this needs to be spread around.. russia isn't perfect, but turkey and the usa are much less so as i see it and that can't be blamed on russia which is what seems implied here..
What I'm asking Russia to do is to be honest. Sure, it's trying, but the main question remains about moving the Genocidal Zionists out of the West Bank whose presence there is deemed illegal yet again. I suggest watching today's Judge Napolitano Friday Intel Chat. https://judgenap.com/
"While geographically, it makes great sense to include Turkey in BRICS, politically it doesn’t whatsoever given Erdogan’s extensive unpredictability"
BRICS will always have the issue that governments change, by election or US coup, todays friendly country can be tomorrow's enemy. Brazil might be a case in point.
It's something I've pondered; the loyalty of comprador elites comes down to the balance of money and power. The US is declining but can still play whack-a-mole pressuring vassals who will nibble or run for cheese when it's offered, e.g. China. It appears that the west is now all stick and no carrot and that's not a winning formula.
I understand the "for" and the "against" very well and I also experience the rollercoaster of emotions. To be honest, I try not to think exclusively in terms of "good" and "not good" when it comes to Russia. Not even because I feel sympathy, even something like love, for this country. Russia will not liberate anyone. Russia is defending its interests. I have no illusions about that. Even in Germany there are many people who, in their desperation, dream of "liberation" by Russia. What's more, the totalitarianism, fascism is becoming more and more established. F. Merz is being discussed as the next chancellor. Black Rock sends its regards. I think this dream is wishful thinking.
On the other hand, we have to assume that this world war is about the existential question. I don't believe that we, the public, are being told what is happening behind the scenes. Yes, I even think that Russia itself is partly engaged in disinformation under the observation of the enemy. Let's call it deceiving the enemy.
Was with you until you called out Lavrov for not addressing the Palestine issue. Russia is all in on International Law, and as far as the 2 state solution goes, that's all that has ever been ratified. So, what's the alternative? Military intervention? If yes, then why is that for Russia to resolve? And if yes are we all prepared for the potential outcome of a great powers conflict of the US backing Israel versus Russia.
I don't have an answer, but I don't blame lavrov for not having one either. The current set-up of the UNSC precludes any possible solution while the US, UK, FR and others continue to polish the turd that is Israel's genocide in Palestine.
Finally, Lavrov is a diplomat. His job is to find diplomatic solutions. He wants to work within the framework of the UN Charter, as he should, but, as above, that is now obviously dysfunctional and past its sell-by date. So rather than pointing the finger at Lavrov, why not China? Why not the slew of Muslim neighbors to Israel that with some exceptions continue to dance around the issue?
Quote: "I consider Turkey to be a quasi-enemy nation"
Quote: "Lavrov’s had a brilliant career, but Russia’s Palestine policy is tarnishing that record and must be solved so that shame doesn’t become his legacy."
Agreed. A question that came to mind for me was, "How many Israeli-supporting jews have Lavrov's ear in his office?
I ask because only a few weeks ago I read an article that supposedly quoted Lavrov in which he made a few concerning statements about the venality of Hamas. It wasn't remotely diplomatic language. I regret not saving the article. Of course we need to consider the fact that the writer may have not been as honest as he might have been because of his own political agenda.
Still, when taken beside the rest of Lavrov's inaction concerning Israel's criminal assaults on the innocent....it should be a red flag.
...and for the record - I've been a huge fan of Lavrov for decades. I'm hoping he's not simply burnt out by the never-ending craziness he's forced to deal with daily.
I too have had a lot of respect for Lavrov for years.
Very slowly Russia and China are moving closer to Resistance Axis position on the settler colony in the Levant and on sovereignty of Syria. It is the Resistance Axis which has military supremacy in the region and which will determine the future of Southwest Asia, the most geopolitically significant region of the world.
Agree with your view on Lavrov and Russia ducking the Palestine issue, as I've said before. Most people are still finding excuses for that, but I think that becomes less tenable the longer this buildup to war continues.
This phrase by Lavrov "the creation of threats to Russia's vital security interests" I believe is a code word for those Aegis Ashore installations in Poland and Romania, which Putin has talked about on several occasions.
I don’t share your negative opinion on Sergei Lavrov in this interview. I thought he demonstrated his usual masterful diplomatic skills. That’s part of his job and there’s no one better at it.
While others on the outside are free to express their personal feelings about Palestine, Israel, Turkey and Erdogan, he is not. Regardless of the subject, his expressed viewpoint must be one that advances (or does the least possible harm to) Russia’s interests. He’s not the judge of anyone; nor can he compel other countries and their leaders to act in certain ways. All Lavrov can do is be the interlocutor between his government and another, even when that other country or its leader has acted deceitfully, or worse. As such, assuming the governments are still in contact, there’s nothing to be gained by having your top diplomat trash the other party. That’s so American!
On Erdogan, Russia understands him perfectly. That’s why Vladimir Putin has had time to meet with the leaders of countries like Bourkino Faso and Mongolia, but not with Turkey’s president. Regardless of the pro forma comments by Lavrov regarding Turkey and BRICS+, Turkey has zero friends or good will within the organization. That could largely be Erdogan’s doing, but regardless, other BRICS countries have more reason to distrust Turkey than agree to it joining. But even though that’s true, there’s no reason for Lavrov to humiliate Turkey by saying so in public.
Again, the criticism is of Russia's policy, not Lavrov specifically. Although he did clearly evade the question at issue.
TIMELY VALUE OF PRESERVING MULTIPLE FACES: Richard Roskell & Karl Sanchez, well written. Humanity has the 'Obligation to protect' such as the Palestinian victims of over 100 years of Jewish, Israeli, Zionist genocide (UN Definition = 'Removing people from or destroying their means of livelihood + settler & state murder') & massacres.
Hence Russia & China's military & livelihood technical collaboration are lone actors protecting Iran & thereby Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Palestinian Authority & Hamas. Arming & technical assistance is the least of subversive protection against Israel's ongoing deliberate genocidal massacre of babies, children, women, elderly, handicapped & men.
I would like to see more 'honesty' as Karl proposes in openly stating the contradictions in an unproductive & damaging process.
We all recognize the wisdom of Russia & Lavrov's careful maneuverings around the Western multi-Trillionaire Oligarch US, Britain, France & Canadian Puppets' insane desire for Nuclear war. Palestine being the long coveted trade & people LAND-BRIDGE between the Mega-continents of Eurasia & Africa drives Oligarch & Zionist gluttony for power & control.
Given this road-block, Russia & China can best arm Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria with the best of weapons & Satellite-based Intelligence, training, munitions & supplies, along with healthy productive economies. The better Lebanon, Syria, Hezbollah & Hamas are armed & so perform in protecting & employing their people, will empower Jordan & Egypt societies & governments to follow the same path & realign with Russia & China to bring Zionist Israel back to a humane reality & respect for all human life. Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem & dozens of Palestinian Refugee camps are showing the world what is means to animate human strengths for sharing & caring together with the least of resources in RELATIONAL-ECONOMY. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/c-relational-economy
OPEN TO DIALOGUE, BUT PROTECTING THE INNOCENT WITH A BIG STICK
3 branches of my family are Ashkenazi Jewish.
Israel for > 100 years of violent invasion, shows no sign of engaging the Palestinian people & governments with formal public, Both-sided, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogues, to achieve any kind of partnership.
Israelis under their Oligarch owners have always acted with violence & disregard for their status as immigrants & contempt. All diplomacy must be paired with public dialogue/debate to have any meaning. The public are always the final mediators.
TRUTH & RECONCILIATION
Along with these military 'Obligation to Protect' strategies, we can also engage average Palestinians, Israelis & ourselves in a Both-sides-now, Equal-time, Recorded & Published Dialogue. With average citizens engaging, such as the Israeli government will have no choice but to engage officially. The Right & Obligation to Dialectic Resolution is part of all humanity's worldwide 'indigenous' (Latin 'self-generating') COUNCIL PROCESS, (before the last 7000 years of colonial invasion, genocide & ecological destruction). All have the dialectic-right to free speech paired with the Dialectic Obligation to raise issues positive for understanding, agreement, Contract delineation or for Conflict Resolution. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/d-participatory-structure/1-both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
On point! Well said.
Funny, I'm surprised to hear that Erdogan only has two faces.
He's more akin to the old 8-Ball prediction toy as you shake it and a different answer appears.
It's good that Russia has finally admitted Turkey's duplicity.
Regarding Russian policy on the Middle East, I believe that from a diplomatic point of view they try to keep a balance, whereas from a military point of view they have already taken a side... and it is the correct one, but they just do not want to trumpet it. Just to make it clear, I am referring to the "strategic partnership between Russia and Iran" - see my latest article on this topic: https://geopolitiq.substack.com/p/iran-beats-the-drums-of-war
Did you see the report about the Zionists floating the trial balloon of Russian mediation? I knew about that when I wrote. Russia shouldn't be a mediator since it ought to be a prosecutor. Larry Johnson was very outspoken on today's Judge's intel chat, https://judgenap.com/
The zionists are shameless; they expect that Putin will be swayed by some perceived buddy relationship with nuttyahoo? The arrogance is blinding. Still it will be interesting to watch Moscow's zionist lobby.
thanks karl... i don't agree with you on the topic of russias position on palestine and think it places all the responsibility on russia doing something when in fact, it is the usa that continues to sabotage any efforts at change in the UN and more generally.. but back to the topic at hand - erdogans incredible balancing act...
it seems to me erdogan likes to play both sides of the aisle, but he doesn't do it in a convincing way... the issue of idlib is a case in point... if he wants to be in the bed with the usa, it doesn't really work when the kurds are being used by the usa on a regular basis to keep him destabilized... i am sure russia is well aware of this too... nothing happens as quickly and as clearly as people would like, but putting the responsibility for all this needs to be spread around.. russia isn't perfect, but turkey and the usa are much less so as i see it and that can't be blamed on russia which is what seems implied here..
What I'm asking Russia to do is to be honest. Sure, it's trying, but the main question remains about moving the Genocidal Zionists out of the West Bank whose presence there is deemed illegal yet again. I suggest watching today's Judge Napolitano Friday Intel Chat. https://judgenap.com/
thanks karl...
"While geographically, it makes great sense to include Turkey in BRICS, politically it doesn’t whatsoever given Erdogan’s extensive unpredictability"
BRICS will always have the issue that governments change, by election or US coup, todays friendly country can be tomorrow's enemy. Brazil might be a case in point.
Brazil already was with Bolsonaro.
It's something I've pondered; the loyalty of comprador elites comes down to the balance of money and power. The US is declining but can still play whack-a-mole pressuring vassals who will nibble or run for cheese when it's offered, e.g. China. It appears that the west is now all stick and no carrot and that's not a winning formula.
I understand the "for" and the "against" very well and I also experience the rollercoaster of emotions. To be honest, I try not to think exclusively in terms of "good" and "not good" when it comes to Russia. Not even because I feel sympathy, even something like love, for this country. Russia will not liberate anyone. Russia is defending its interests. I have no illusions about that. Even in Germany there are many people who, in their desperation, dream of "liberation" by Russia. What's more, the totalitarianism, fascism is becoming more and more established. F. Merz is being discussed as the next chancellor. Black Rock sends its regards. I think this dream is wishful thinking.
On the other hand, we have to assume that this world war is about the existential question. I don't believe that we, the public, are being told what is happening behind the scenes. Yes, I even think that Russia itself is partly engaged in disinformation under the observation of the enemy. Let's call it deceiving the enemy.
Lavrov is doing what diplomats do, diplomacy.
Cheers Karl.
Was with you until you called out Lavrov for not addressing the Palestine issue. Russia is all in on International Law, and as far as the 2 state solution goes, that's all that has ever been ratified. So, what's the alternative? Military intervention? If yes, then why is that for Russia to resolve? And if yes are we all prepared for the potential outcome of a great powers conflict of the US backing Israel versus Russia.
I don't have an answer, but I don't blame lavrov for not having one either. The current set-up of the UNSC precludes any possible solution while the US, UK, FR and others continue to polish the turd that is Israel's genocide in Palestine.
Finally, Lavrov is a diplomat. His job is to find diplomatic solutions. He wants to work within the framework of the UN Charter, as he should, but, as above, that is now obviously dysfunctional and past its sell-by date. So rather than pointing the finger at Lavrov, why not China? Why not the slew of Muslim neighbors to Israel that with some exceptions continue to dance around the issue?
Quote: "I consider Turkey to be a quasi-enemy nation"
Quote: "Lavrov’s had a brilliant career, but Russia’s Palestine policy is tarnishing that record and must be solved so that shame doesn’t become his legacy."
I agree fully with your conclusions!
Agreed. A question that came to mind for me was, "How many Israeli-supporting jews have Lavrov's ear in his office?
I ask because only a few weeks ago I read an article that supposedly quoted Lavrov in which he made a few concerning statements about the venality of Hamas. It wasn't remotely diplomatic language. I regret not saving the article. Of course we need to consider the fact that the writer may have not been as honest as he might have been because of his own political agenda.
Still, when taken beside the rest of Lavrov's inaction concerning Israel's criminal assaults on the innocent....it should be a red flag.
...and for the record - I've been a huge fan of Lavrov for decades. I'm hoping he's not simply burnt out by the never-ending craziness he's forced to deal with daily.
Good point about infiltration of his office.
I too have had a lot of respect for Lavrov for years.
Very slowly Russia and China are moving closer to Resistance Axis position on the settler colony in the Levant and on sovereignty of Syria. It is the Resistance Axis which has military supremacy in the region and which will determine the future of Southwest Asia, the most geopolitically significant region of the world.
https://fadilama.substack.com/p/showdown-at-sunset
https://fadilama.substack.com/p/israel-the-jewish-settler-colony
Karl as others I think you are overly harsh on both Lavrov and the RF policy towards Turkey
One shared, as far as one can see by China - presumably the US and the EU are also frustrated
To adopt a policy based on morality would not be useful
Gradually to reel him and the country in would be
People may criticise VVP for spending so many years trying to reach an agreement with Bush and the US, until he came out with it at Munich 2007
Would you have so spoken then, would you so speak now
Lavrov filled in for him Munich 2008 - I guess that now he speaks closely to what VVP would say
They are looking to the après Erdogan, and they are aligning with China's leadership, maybe even with Modi too
Patience
Agree with your view on Lavrov and Russia ducking the Palestine issue, as I've said before. Most people are still finding excuses for that, but I think that becomes less tenable the longer this buildup to war continues.
This phrase by Lavrov "the creation of threats to Russia's vital security interests" I believe is a code word for those Aegis Ashore installations in Poland and Romania, which Putin has talked about on several occasions.