Shoigu Talks with Putin

Today Putin and Shoigu met to confer on what to do next after Avdeevka’s fall. A short discussion of the main event that turned the tide—the assault through the old Soviet-era sewage pipe 3km into the Ukie rear. Putin describes the retreat as an “escape'“ bordering on a rout. The discussion turns to Krinki and the defeat of the Ukie forces that tried to establish a beachhead there. Finally, the conversation turns to the hullaballoo raised about Russian space weapons and why that occurred. All emphasis mine:

Vladimir Putin: Sergey Kuzhugetovich, we are here – You, me, Chief of the General Staff [Valery Gerasimov] And then you reported that the situation in the Avdiivka area is developing rapidly, even said rapidly – we will see what will happen in the next few hours. So – this was probably the right thing to do. All this was reported carefully.

As far as I understand, and as Andrey Nikolaevich [Mordvichev] reported to me the day before yesterday, the enemy began a chaotic withdrawal from this settlement at 6-7 o'clock in the morning. And already – it was at what time, at 11, right? – You were here again together with the Chief of the General Staff and reported that this chaotic flight was taking place in Avdiivka. By this time, as I understand it, the leadership of the armed forces of Ukraine also issued an order to withdraw their armed forces when they were already on the move and leaving this locality.

I understand that this was done for political reasons, to cover up this move and give it the appearance of an organized withdrawal. We see and know that this is not so, that it was actually an escape-in the truest sense of the word. As I have already said, Andrey Nikolaevich reported to me the day before yesterday about what was happening there at the moment.

I would like to hear your assessment of what is happening now.

Sergei : Mr Putin, I will start by saying that there were regular reports. Almost ten days earlier, you spoke with the commander of the assault group and the Veterans volunteer detachment, who carried out, in our opinion, a unique operation, passing through the pipe to the south of Avdiivka, going to the rear of the enemy-almost three and a half kilometers – and deploying a fairly significant bridgehead there, to which then three more the rest of the troops fought their way through the day, which was done successfully.

About the current situation, Mr Putin. This color [on the map] is what it was at the time of the report to you, when we reported that the enemy's exit, or rather flight, from Avdiivka had begun. This is Avdiivka itself. By the time we reported to you, at 11 o'clock, this part was practically released. Then the active actions of all the troops and Aerospace Forces began – they, more precisely, continued. At the time of our report to you at 11 o'clock in the afternoon, Koksokhim [Avdiivka Coke Plant] was not released. "Koksokhim "is now released, there is movement to the west-to this locality, there is movement from the south, there is movement from the southwest. On the line of troops and work continues, and here the tasks are completed.

As for the orders regarding the organized withdrawal of troops. We started working in this area almost two months before today. Here, of course, a lot of different weapons were involved and objective control of the strikes and movement of enemy troops was established both day and night. Therefore, everything that happened to the enemy that night, and the following night, and before that, unfortunately, we recorded – not specifically, but we had to control, first of all, where we strike, so as not to hit empty squares, but to deliver very specific, precise strikes.

We had about 460 such strikes every day in the last 24 hours before the enemy left this territory of Avdiivka. These are really high-precision strikes. If we talk in tons and kilograms, this is about 200 tons every day on the affected targets arrived.

Otherwise, the troops are active. We reported to you that we once again used the same pipe: we came out here now and it turned out that our troops were standing up here, but the enemy was here. Now all this is already surrounded, finished. The enemy, leaving, left many wounded. As for these wounded people, they became prisoners because they were simply unable to leave.

A lot of weapons were thrown, a lot of personal weapons, a lot of ATGMs [anti-tank guided missiles], MANPADS [man-portable air defense systems]. Actually, everything is being cleaned up now. A lot of work is being done on mine clearance. A lot of things were left behind. But with the understanding that the exit was really a run and chaotic, there are no specially mined objects.

Here, Mr President, I would like to draw your special attention to the fact that this fortified area was built and built over a period of nine years. For nine years, day after day, underground passages, concrete structures were made, special lines were made so that it was possible to move without going to the surface.

Therefore, of course, the fact that the enemy's resistance is broken here is a great success for the mixed group of troops, units – formations-all of them without exception. You can, of course, mention the Aerospace Forces, army aviation, and assault aircraft. Here, much depended on whether we would give the enemy at least some time to rest.

Vladimir Putin: You remembered about the "Veterans". All military units, all military personnel, of course, deserve the highest awards, incentives and words of gratitude from the country, from Russia, from our people. What can I say, all the guys acted courageously and heroically.

As for the "Veterans", this is, of course, in this case, in any case, this is a special situation. The diameter of this pipe, as the commander of this unit reported to me – he personally reported to me, they remembered this-is 1 meter 10 centimeters – 1 meter 20 centimeters. And they, healthy men, on this pipe, not knowing where to go, go, went over three kilometers. They went to an almost unknown place, seized 19 buildings at once, held on there for several days until they were released, and they have losses. In general, of course, this is such a special page in the history of military operations in general, in Russia as a whole, while protecting its vital interests.

So please pay attention to them.

Are they out of the zone now? Resting?

Sergei Shoigu: They are currently recovering, resting and preparing for further military operations. No one has any doubts that they will return here, back – they mean, we certainly have no doubts.

Vladimir Putin: Now, as for the prisoners of war. I know, and we have always done so – during the special military operation, and now we must continue this practice-we must act in strict accordance with certain international legal documents and conventions with regard to prisoners of war. We have always acted in this way, and I know that we supported them with dignity. I ask you to follow the same practice in this part.

Now, as for the overall situation in Avdiivka. This is an absolute success. I congratulate you. It needs to be developed, this is also an obvious thing. But development must be well-prepared and provided with personnel, weapons, equipment, and ammunition. We'll talk about this separately. As a matter of fact, we are already talking to you about this every day. This seems to go without saying, but nevertheless I draw your attention to it.

There is another area that I would like to draw your attention to and also talk to you about it. I also spoke with Mikhail [Teplinsky] the day before yesterday, and he reported to me about the village of Krynki on the left bank of the Dnieper. This question came up, if you remember, even during a Direct line with me. I said at the time that I don't understand why the enemy is doing this to their own people, sending them to almost certain death there, and treating them as if they are not their own people at all.

Mikhail Yuryevich reported that this settlement on the left bank of the Dnieper is practically – not practically, but completely - under our control. The necessary defenses are built there. He told me that there are four or five people there, maybe hiding somewhere, they are offered to surrender, and those who make such a decision, they are taken as prisoners. But three or four people are still out there somewhere, either in the woods or in dug holes, as he said, still hiding.

However-I know his assessment – I would like to hear your assessment of what is happening in this area.

Sergei Shoigu: Mr President, I know about Colonel-General Teplinsky's report. I confirm his report, it is true: The wings are cleared. We were positioned virtually along the entire coast of the Krynka and Konka Rivers. To date, there are not only observation posts there – there are troops there.

The paratroopers and the 810th Marine Brigade performed very well.

Vladimir Putin: Marines.

Sergei Shoigu: Yes. You know the brigade commander, met him, talked to him more than once, and thanked him for his active actions in other areas. Here they are just as active, just as effective.

This work has been completed, Mr President, but here I would not want my colleagues to get the impression that Krynki is a small, intermediate settlement where nothing special has happened.

Let me remind you, Vladimir Vladimirovich, that all our work on the Kherson direction of the Dnipro group began last summer, when the enemy was preparing a major breakthrough here - to the Crimea, in order to block traffic to the Crimea. And then it was decided to build here in three echelons of defense. But it's not here anymore, it's already on a different map.

That is why, Mr President, we have taken all measures to ensure that this work is completed in a timely manner. And then began, on the one hand, active defense, on the other hand-the daily grinding of enemy forces.

From the summer of last year to the present day, the enemy has actually lost almost 3,500 people there. If we talk specifically about Krynki, then the main place of the breakthrough was planned there and four brigades of the enemy's 30th Marine Corps were concentrated there. These are well-equipped, trained, rested, equipped with both weapons and personnel formations that were supposed to carry out this very breakthrough across the Dnieper and create a springboard for further advance and deployment of forces.

It was precisely this that all the forces that were concentrated there prevented, and, in fact, they fulfilled their task.

Therefore, the only thing I can say is that the competent actions of the command-of course, if we are talking about Avdiivka, there they were audacious actions-then here it is a systematic, daily, systematic work that made it possible to keep and gain a foothold and not allow the enemy to develop and expand the bridgehead. Although the work, frankly speaking, was very difficult, because there were constant shelling from the [other] shore, artillery was very active, and FPV drones and drones were very active.

Perhaps for the first time we saw here the delivery of ammunition, food, and medicines not only by boats, but also by large ones [Drones] – these are no longer quadrocopters – octocopters, some call them "Baba Yaga", which can carry large loads.

As for the fact that there is somewhere one [person] left, somewhere two remained: of course, they are all offered to surrender. Two weeks ago, on your instructions, we brought everything that concerns loudspeakers there, and they are driving along the coast, and now they are driving along the shore, announcing it constantly. Although we understand that it is probably already difficult to talk about SMS, but nevertheless sms messages and leaflets are sent… That is, we continue this work, even if we see and understand that there may be only a few left.

There are what they call fox holes made in the shoreline. Both the 45th Special Forces brigade of the Airborne Forces and the special operations forces are now working in these burrows... If, of course, someone gives a signal that they are ready to surrender, then all measures are being taken to provide medical assistance if necessary, but so far, in general, there aren't any of them in particular.

Vladimir Putin: No, there is some change there.

Sergei Shoigu: They used to be, Mr Putin.

Vladimir Putin: And now there's almost no one left. If anyone is left behind, you don't need to cry over the radio, as I was told, or beg for evacuation – let them surrender.

But this is also a good job, and I want to congratulate you, the General Staff and the local command, and all the military personnel who work there and fight.

Of course, the enemy is carrying out absolutely reckless actions from a military point of view, but this is like a trap, and they are climbing, climbing and climbing into this trap. But in any case, judging by the practice that we observe, these reckless actions may be repeated, so I ask you to keep this in mind, and please tell the commanders on the ground, too, and bring them to them.

Sergei Shoigu: Mr President, this is a one-way road.

Vladimir Putin: Yes.

Sergei Shoigu: In principle, on the one hand, it is clear to us why this is being done and is timed to coincide with different dates: we have it either for Ramstein, when some activity begins, when they gather there and discuss how to help Ukraine, or it is the adoption of the budget and the allocation of funds from the Pentagon to help Ukraine, as it was at the end of last year, when they began very active operations here, in the Kherson direction. And according to all the radio intercepts, according to all the information, they had to show at least some success.…

Vladimir Putin: To their sponsors.

Sergei Shoigu: To the sponsors, because there in the Senate, in Congress, the issue of providing assistance to Ukraine was considered, and then, as you remember, assistance was also provided to Israel in one package. Taking into account the fact that no result was achieved, there is no decision on assistance yet. Probably, someone will have it. But now, apparently, we need to wait for the next activity-either to Ramstein ,or… Well, now it was Munich.

Vladimir Putin: They've set up some sort of headquarters there, haven't they? Abroad, abroad of Ukraine, which actually plans all these operations?

Sergei Shoigu: Yes, Mr Putin, this is not actually external control – it is simply the management of all forces. Instructors everywhere. For them, in my opinion, it is a feat if one of them objects to something to their curators, their instructors.

Because everything that was planned last year for a large, large-scale counteroffensive, all this was planned precisely by the United States, by NATO instructors, and was planned in detail. So, of course, this defeat was a serious shock for them, because those methods, those technologies, those techniques that they may have practiced in other places and tried to apply here, suffered a complete fiasco.

Here we cannot say that their military science has reached some unprecedented heights that allow them to ... What peaks they have reached in different places – we have seen: this is Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and Syria. In Syria – just to remind you, maybe it's already gone-when the decision was made to support the Syrian government, Assad controlled 18 percent of the country's territory. To date, it is over 90 [percent], and in fact the very international terrorism that the coalition of 67 countries was going to defeat was defeated there.

Vladimir Putin: Sergey Kuzhugetovich, you mentioned the enemy's losses on the Krynki River and on the left bank of the Dnieper River in general. But still, the enemy's losses in Avdiivka – at least approximately, in general, during the recent period of hostilities?

Sergei Shoigu: Mr President, during the recent period of military operations… I will say only for the last two days, I will call it this: 17-18 [February] - 2400. It's not our data – it's their data. Naturally, we take into account everything that is connected with those who were abandoned or not evacuated. This is a big loss, Mr Putin, given that, as we reported to you, on the 16th-they had previously transferred the 14th and 13th to Koksokhim just in time…

Vladimir Putin: Two battalions.

Sergei Shoigu: Yes, two battalions. These are already nationalists who are really convinced nationalists, and it was assumed that taking into account the fact that Koksokhim was created there for nine years, we generally believed that we would probably do the same there as we did at Azovstal in Mariupol, when here-only at that table – we have decided that we will not encircle them: we encircle them and wait. We wanted to do exactly the same here, but…

Vladimir Putin: And they knew it. They chose to run away.

Sergei Shoigu: Yes, and they chose to run away.

Vladimir Putin: Sergey Kuzhugetovich, there is another issue that is not related to the current events on the contact line within the framework of the special military operation. This question concerns the recent uproar in the West, including in the United States, over the deployment of nuclear weapons in outer space.

Our position is clear and transparent: we have always been categorically opposed and are now against the deployment of nuclear weapons in outer space. On the contrary, we urge not only to comply with all the agreements that exist in this area, but also to repeatedly strengthen this joint work.

But now, for some reason, this topic is being raised again in the West, and on a rather high emotional note. How do you explain this?

Sergei Shoigu: Mr President, I would like to say this first. First of all, this is not the case. Second, they know we don't have it.…

Vladimir Putin: No-in the sense of placement in space.

Sergei Shoigu: The deployment of nuclear weapons in outer space and the use of any other elements of nuclear weapons by satellites or by creating fields that will not allow satellites to work effectively.

I mean, we don't have it, they know we don't have it, but they still make a fuss. Vladimir Vladimirovich, I am surprised that everyone knows what we have, and you openly stated this in your 2018 Address to the Federal Assembly to virtually the entire world.

They know that we have a fairly high stage of completion of work on Poseidon, Peresvet, Petrel, Sarmat, and Avangard – two regiments are already practically in service, on combat duty. In this situation, of course, you can add a few more options to this. For some reason, they don't talk about it, but they really should be afraid of this.

In our opinion, they probably don't talk about it because they don't have it. The reason for the uproar, in our opinion, is two things. The first is to frighten senators and congressmen in order to promote and push through the allocation of funds that are allegedly directed not just for Ukraine, but in order to resist Russia, to inflict a strategic defeat on it. The second is a situation that they would like, in our opinion, to resume and encourage us, perhaps so clumsily, to engage in a dialogue on stratostability.

Vladimir Putin: I agree.

Sergei Shoigu: Most likely it is.

Vladimir Putin: Yes, I agree. As far as space is concerned, we only do what other countries, including the United States, have in space. And of course, you're right: they know about it.

As for the negotiations: we have never been against negotiations – we have always been for negotiations. This also applies to Ukraine, the Ukrainian direction. I have already said a hundred times that we did not interrupt the dialogue – it was the Ukrainian side that interrupted the dialogue, and at the direct command from London and Washington. Now the Ukrainian side is directly talking about this – at the official level. I don't know why they do this, but they do speak publicly.

As for stratostability, we have never given up on dialogue here either. But, of course, to pretend that the United States and the West, on the one hand, are calling for a strategic defeat of Russia, and on the other hand, they allegedly intend and want to negotiate with us on strategic stability, believing that one issue has nothing to do with the other – this will not be possible. If they are trying to inflict a strategic defeat on us, then we should think about what strategic stability means for our country.

So, we don't reject anything, we don't give up anything. We need to figure out what they want. They tend to want to pursue one-sided advantages. This will not happen. Nevertheless, contacts are certainly possible through you and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Judging by the hysteria at Munich, the West remains incapable of negotiations. It’s thought that some magical formulation will appear that will turn the tide and Russia will be forced to withdrawal. That’s not going to happen. No tipping of the hand by either in their talk. That Putin thinks the West ought to fear Russia’s weaponry but doesn’t seem to be I found odd for him to say. IMO, Russia’s entire realm of technical advances has the West scared as they know they’re very far behind, and thus the hysteria isn’t just about forcing more funding. Resupply via drone is one aspect of the talk that was unexpected. Shoigu seems to think that’s a very important item where Russia’s likely deficient. Putin would like to see the establishment of another kill box, but it appears Russia will need to advance and force its creation. I await a push to cross the Oskil river and thus engage Kupyansk. I’m sure we’ll know by the end of the week which direction’s next for Russia.

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