SPIEF Plenary Session

Vladimir Putin took part in the plenary session of the XXVII St. Petersburg International Economic Forum

The Kremlin’s introduction to the transcript:

The session was also attended by President of the Plurinational State of Bolivia Luis Alberto Arce Katakora and President of the Republic of Zimbabwe Emmerson Dambudzo Mnangagwa.

The discussion was moderated by Sergey Karaganov, a political scientist, historian, research director of the Faculty of World Economy and World Politics of the Higher School of Economics.

The St. Petersburg International Economic Forum has been held annually since 1997 and has become one of the world's leading platforms for discussing key issues of the global economy.

In 2024, the SPIEF is held under the motto "The foundation of a multipolar world-creating new growth points". It is attended by more than 12 thousand people – shareholders and CEOs of leading companies, recognized experts and analysts, political, public and state figures.

The 27th St. Petersburg International Economic Forum again attracted people from over 130 nations to its wide variety of events as its website informs in English. Escobar’s Telegram has info about the events he’s involved with. As usual, there are some surprises delivered during Putin’s hour-long address. If your giddy with excited expectations, you have the proper emotional attitude:

Sergey Karaganov: Good afternoon, dear Presidents!

Dear colleagues! Dear friends!

It is a great honor and pleasure to lead this session. It will be an interesting session: we have a very bright and powerful group of speakers.

Let me start with Mr. Emmerson Mnangagwa. This is an absolutely legendary man, this is the last leader of an African country who fought almost all his life – most of his life, a significant part-with weapons in his hands for the independence of his homeland. He spent ten years in one prison, two in another, survived, had two death sentences, and when he became President, he abolished death sentences in his country.

We will be very interested, of course, if Mr. Mnangagwa tells us about the experience that he can share with us. The country has been under sanctions for a very long time, because they dared to nationalize the possessions of white colonialists.

Mr. Luis Arce is an outstanding economist, a descendant of people who fought with the great Simon Bolivar for the independence of their homeland. Therefore, he has a slightly less dramatic fate, but also absolutely magnificent, full of drama and victories.

In addition, he was for many years, a decade and a half, the country's Minister of Economy and Finance, and during these years his country has increased its GNP three and a half times and more than halved the number of poor people. At the same time, he carried out remarkable and interesting reforms, including the nationalization of a significant part of the property of foreign companies and mineral resources. At the same time, he was engaged in import substitution, and he succeeded. We will also be very interested to know his experience, of course.

And of course, I think that Vladimir Vladimirovich does not need advertising, and it is inappropriate for me, as a citizen of the country of which he is President, to praise him – I will only say one thing. I clearly remember the years 1998 and 1999, when our country was on the verge, or rather, already beyond the brink of collapse, there was an absolutely tragic situation. I remember that my comrades and I fought desperately, almost hopelessly. And at some point, the Lord God had mercy on us.

Now, Mr President, you have an equally difficult task ahead of you: not only to win, but also to save the world, which is heading for a world war. But for now, we'll probably talk about something else.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, please.

Vladimir Putin: Good afternoon, dear friends and colleagues!

Dear Mr. Arce, Dear Mr. Mnangagwa, Dear guests, Friends! Ladies and gentlemen,

I am very happy to welcome you all to the XXVII St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

This year, more than 12 thousand people from more than a hundred countries of the world became its participants and guests. These are shareholders and CEOs of leading companies, recognized experts and analysts, politicians, public figures, and government officials.

Traditionally, the forum in St. Petersburg provides an opportunity not only to establish business contacts, agree on cooperation or launch promising projects, but also to exchange views in an open discussion on current trends in global and regional markets, and to look through the prism of economic relations at the processes that are developing dynamically in the modern world.

We can see that there is a real race between countries to strengthen their sovereignty, and at three key levels: state, value-cultural and economic. At the same time, the countries that until recently were the leaders of global development are trying by all means, by hook or crook, to preserve their elusive role as hegemons. In general, there is nothing unusual here. When a country or a person in their life tries to maintain their positions, strengthen them, but with lies - this is bad. That's the truth – it's good. And untruths are no good.

Here, of course, we can see that China is already the number one economy, and by a large margin from the second place. India is the third largest economy in the world and a global leader in terms of development dynamics.

Countries in South Asia and Africa are increasingly asserting themselves, with high birth rates and still low levels of urbanization, as well as fast, catching-up economic growth. According to experts and specialized specialists, such states will determine the global economic picture in the middle of this century.

I would like to add that the world is now experiencing explosive technological growth in almost all spheres of life. It seriously changes management, production processes, and even entire industries. It is obvious that those countries that not only produce new solutions, but are also able to ensure their rapid and advanced implementation will be able to fully take advantage of technological progress.

Russia has proven a high level of readiness and receptivity to technological transformation. We can see how our financial sector, e-commerce, transport services, and public administration have already changed. Similar processes are beginning to unfold in the Armed Forces, where we also need a high rate of technological renewal. This is the most important and defining issue for our country.

I am sure that both in the current conditions and in the long term, the role, weight and, I will say more, the future of states depend on how effectively they can respond to global challenges, realize their internal potential, use their competitive advantages and level out their weaknesses, maintain and strengthen partnership relations with other countries.

In February of this year, during the Address to the Federal Assembly, the key directions and priorities of Russia's development were outlined, and a comprehensive program of transformations was formed until the end of the current decade and beyond.

The forum format allows us to focus specifically on the economic agenda of our development, on the qualitative and structural changes that are taking place in our country and that we intend to actively and purposefully support, unite financial, human and organizational resources around them both at the federal, regional and municipal levels, and implement national projects. We discussed it in detail at the recent Strategic Development Council.

What are these changes? What is it about?

First. Taking into account the international nature of our event, I will start with foreign economic relations, with the positions that we strive to occupy in world markets, and how we expect to change the structure of our exports and imports.

Despite all the obstacles and illegitimate sanctions, Russia remains one of the key participants in world trade, actively developing logistics and geographical cooperation. Thus, our relations are strengthening with the countries of Asia (an increase of 60 percent from 2020 to 2023), the Middle East (an increase of 2 times), Africa (69 percent) and Latin America (by 42 percent). I expect that my distinguished colleagues and guests of our forum, the Presidents of Bolivia and Zimbabwe, will address this topic in their speeches.

In general, the countries that are friendly to Russia—and, as we can see, this is what we should pay attention to first of all, the economies of fast-growing states, which will determine the future of the global economy—today they already account for three-quarters of our trade turnover.

We continue to work effectively with our partners in the Eurasian Economic Community, ensuring a balance of interests for all participants. Last year, the combined GDP of the Union countries grew by 3.8 percent, and the volume of mutual trade - by 4.7 percent. Moreover, its structure has improved qualitatively, namely, the supply of finished high-tech products has increased. We will actively support such non-resource, non-energy exports from Russia. By 2030, its volume should grow by at least two-thirds compared to 2023.

At the same time, we are talking not just about increasing export supplies in tons, cubic meters, and units of finished products, but also about high-value products, and not only about Russian companies entering new regional markets and expanding the geography of cooperation. All this is important, but today it is not enough.

We are ready to offer other countries full-scale technological and industrial partnerships, including ensuring the full life cycle of goods and services with training of national personnel, localization of production, engineering support, technical services, insurance, and so on.

Such an approach to cooperation—on an equal footing, transfer of technologies and competencies, rather than their monopolization—allows us to establish stronger ties between states, increases the stability of our companies ' positions in the global market, and gives them the opportunity to work with foreign partners for a long time. This is exactly how one of our leaders, namely Rosatom, the undisputed leader in the global nuclear power industry, operates with great prospects and groundwork for the future.

It is obvious that the development of new markets requires strengthening transport links. So, in the eastern direction, to China, to the countries of the Asia-Pacific region—the main project for us is the development of the so-called Eastern Railway Polygon. In April, the parameters of the next, already third stage of its modernization were approved. By 2030, the capacity of the Eastern Railway Landfill is expected to grow to 210 million tons, and by 2032 – to 270 million tons.

We will pay special attention to the southern direction. Plans for the development of the North – South international corridor and the Azov-Black Sea corridor have already been approved.

The Northern Sea Route is becoming a popular global artery. Last year, 36 million tons of cargo passed through it, and in the future, transportation may exceed 150 million tons. To do this, we will continue to develop the Northern Sea Route infrastructure and build transport approaches to Arctic ports. A special role in this work is assigned to the leaders of our northern regions of the Russian Federation. In this regard, we will form a commission on the development of the Arctic regions and the Northern Sea Route within the State Council.

In general, it is predicted that by 2030, the volume of traffic along international transport corridors through Russia will increase by one and a half times compared to 2021, primarily due to the increase in the competitiveness of these routes, their convenience for business and for carriers.

A separate issue that is important for both exporters and importers is the development of cross–border payment infrastructure. It is no secret, of course, that the reliability and trust in Western payment systems have been thoroughly undermined, and by Western countries themselves. In this regard, I would like to note that last year the share of payments for Russian exports in the so-called toxic currencies of unfriendly states halved. At the same time, the share of the ruble in export and import operations is growing. It is approaching 40 percent today.

From 2021 to 2023, the ruble's share in payments for Russian exports almost tripled, to 39 percent. Three times!

Together with our foreign partners, we will increase the use of national currencies in foreign trade settlements and improve the security and efficiency of such transactions. Among other things, the BRICS countries are working on the formation of an independent payment system that is not subject to political pressure, abuse, or external sanctions interference.

In this regard, I would like to remind you that this year new participants joined the BRICS work: Saudi Arabia, Iran, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Ethiopia. Thus, the share of our association in the world GDP has grown to 36 percent, and in the world population – to 46 percent. At the same time, BRICS has a great potential for new participants to join. Of course, we welcome and will continue to support this desire of interested partners to develop contacts with BRICS on different continents.

We will continue to develop our BRICS relations not only in the economic and financial spheres, but also in security, humanitarian cooperation, and other areas. We will act taking into account global challenges and objective trends and, I emphasize, the growing opportunities of national economies.

In this regard, the second significant structural change is the achievement of a new quality and content of economic growth in Russia, a change in the sectoral structure due to an active supply-side economy policy.

As you know, Russia's GDP grew by 3.6 percent last year, and 5.4 percent in the first quarter of this year. In other words, our rates exceed the global average. It is especially important that such dynamics are determined primarily by non-primary industries.

In 2023, for reference, I can also specify that growth was provided by 45.5 percent in the basic industries, as I said. What's it? Manufacturing, construction, logistics, communications, agriculture, electricity supply, and other housing and communal services. By 61.6 percent – providing industries: trade, hotels and restaurants, finance and other services.

We have set a goal to enter the top four largest economies in the world. By the way, according to some sources, including the World Bank's estimates, just last week the world bank made additional calculations and put Russia in fourth place. We were ahead of Japan.

Russia ranks fourth in terms of GDP and purchasing power parity. As I said, ahead of Japan. But I would like to mention something. The point, of course, is not in the systems of estimating and calculating GDP, or even in formally reaching the fourth line. We are somewhere close: Russia, the Federal Republic of Germany, Japan. The difference is small. We are ahead, but the difference is small. But at the same time, we understand that leadership positions need to be constantly confirmed and strengthened. Other countries also do not stand still. It is important for us to ensure consistently high growth rates and quality in the long term. That is our task today. And it's not just the economies of Germany or Japan that are next to us on the scale. The fact is that other countries do not stand still either. Indonesia is right on everyone's heels. The population is growing, and the economy is developing. We must never forget this.

Solving this problem requires strengthening financial, technological, and personnel sovereignty, increasing production capacity, and increasing the competitiveness of Russian products, both in foreign markets and in our own domestic market.

The development of such a model of the supply economy should also result in a reduction in the level of imports to 17 percent of GDP by 2030. In principle, our dynamics are good. Look: in 1999, the share of Russian imports reached 26 percent of GDP, and in 2023 it was 19 percent of GDP, or 32 trillion rubles. That is, as I have already said, the dynamics are absolutely clear and positive.

I would like to emphasize that the share of imports should be reduced, of course, not due to administrative barriers, but due to our own competitive industries that are ready to meet domestic needs in the manufacturing industry, agriculture, services, IT, and many other industries.

There are many successful examples of this strategy. For example, in the agro-industrial complex, we have created a modern meat industry. Its capacity has almost doubled in 15 years. Today, Russia ranks fourth in the world in meat production and increases the supply of these products to foreign markets. But, by the way, in terms of meat, Russia has reached one hundred percent security with its own products. Meat consumption in Russia in 2023, last year, updated the record and exceeded 80 kilograms per person. For comparison, in the world on average it is 42-43 kilograms per person.

I would like to repeat that our country can and will produce more consumer goods, machine tools, equipment, vehicles, medicines and so on. To do this, it is necessary to launch new projects, create modern jobs, and everywhere-in all regions of the country.

By 2030, investment in fixed assets should add 60 percent in real terms to the level of 2020. We are all competent people here, and all specialists understand what investment in fixed assets is, what it leads to, and what prerequisites it creates for future development in the medium and longer term.

In recent years, I would like to emphasize that in general, we have been doing very well in this important area. In 2021, the investment growth plan was 4.5 percent, but in reality it was 8.6 percent. In 2022, the plan is 9,5 percent, in reality-15,9 percent. In 2023, the plan is 15.1 percent, but in fact it turned out to be 27.2 percent, which is almost twice as high as the plan. This is a good indicator.

Of course, investment activity needs to be provided with resources. I have already said that we will allocate additional funds for the development of industrial mortgages, and we will almost double the Industrial Development Fund.

We will also increase the capabilities of such a tool as the Project Finance Factory of the VEB Development Institute of Russia. With its help, projects worth more than two trillion rubles are already being implemented. I propose to consistently increase the fund's limits. At the first stage, we will increase it to 600 billion rubles [about $7billion]– this will allow us to additionally support real sector projects worth up to six trillion rubles [about $70Billion].

An important task is to increase the volume of bank lending to projects of technological sovereignty. To do this, we will adjust the so-called taxonomy of such projects, that is, the system of priorities for supporting and increasing investment in key industries and technological projects aimed at structural changes in the economy. We will increase the number of projects that such a system will cover, which will attract additional resources for their implementation.

The state is ready to share risks with investors. Thus, the Fund of Funds for Promising Industrial and Infrastructure Projects has already been launched. We discussed its parameters for a long time: there were disputes in the Government, we coordinated it with the business community – those who took an active part in this know and are in this hall.

Private investors are actively investing in the Russian economy together with the Russian Direct Investment Fund. This is another area of work.

The State Duma is currently considering draft laws that will expand the mechanism of public-private partnership to cover industries and the space sector. Please adopt these regulations as soon as possible.

And one more thing: to support investment activity, of course, it is necessary to develop the capital market, increase its capacity, attractiveness for businesses and investors, and, of course, pay special attention to the safety and profitability of citizens ' funds invested in these assets.

Today in our country, almost 30 million so-called retail investors are citizens. The total volume of their assets for the year increased 1.5 times and amounted to more than nine trillion rubles. At the same time, the demand for placement of shares of Russian companies has consistently exceeded the supply during this time.

The goal has already been set: by the end of this decade, the capitalization of the Russian stock market should approximately double and make up two-thirds of the gross domestic product.

I ask the Government, together with the Central Bank, to propose additional measures to encourage companies to enter the stock exchange with their securities. In particular, we need to think about compensating the costs of initial public offerings for small technology companies.

This is a call to the Ministry of Finance, to the Central Bank. The costs of companies, including those related to bank transactions, placement, and so on, should be reduced as much as possible. And of course, it is necessary to ensure the inflow of so-called long money into the financial market, including long-term savings of citizens.

Let me remind you that since January 1 of this year, a special program has been launched to support voluntary long-term savings of citizens. Now they are insured and co-financed by the state and you can also get a tax deduction for them. The program was launched recently and still lags behind the target indicators. I propose to adjust it further, namely, to increase the term of co-financing of citizens ' savings. Now it is three years old. I think it is right and reasonable to extend it to at least ten years.

At the same time, I ask the Government, together with the Central Bank, to consider additional incentives for businesses so that employers can also co-finance the savings of their employees under this program. Now, taking into account the shortage of labor, it will be appropriate and even benefit the enterprises themselves, it will retain employees at home.

I would like to add that this year a new tool will be introduced – a savings certificate. It will allow citizens to place funds in banks for a period of more than three years and at a higher interest rate than on conventional deposits, although even now the deposit is quite solid, and our leading financial institutions are also pushing this bar higher and higher. I don't know if this is reasonable or not, but it is certainly a plus for deposit holders, and this is understandable. I just don't want you, Herman Oskarovich [Gref], together with Andrey Leonidovich [Kostin], to suck everything out of other banks like a vacuum cleaner. We'll talk more about it later.

Since January 1, 2025, shared life insurance of citizens will be launched. What is its meaning? Citizens' insurance premiums will be able to invest in more profitable assets, in shares, and bring benefits to the buyer of insurance. In other words, the principle of classical insurance and investment is combined here, and in order to additionally guarantee the return of these funds, I propose here, as for long-term savings, to provide state insurance in the amount of two million 800 thousand rubles.

Further. Today, the regions have an investment tax deduction mechanism. It allows companies that invest in development to reduce their income tax. Starting this year, the deduction is linked to projects of technological sovereignty and structural adaptation of the economy. This makes it possible to manage the quality of investments and encourage capital spending in priority areas.

I ask the Government to make sure that the deduction can be applied not only within one company, but also within a group of companies, as well as to provide additional resources for the financing mechanism, to make up for the tax deduction.

In this regard, I would like to remind you of the decision already made, namely: regions will be able to allocate part of the funds released after writing off budget loans to cover their shortfall in income due to the investment tax deduction. The Ministry of Finance still took this step. I think it is justified in modern conditions and will help all active participants in economic activity. I'll tell you more about this later. In addition, I am confident that the regions will support investors directly-at the expense of their budget opportunities, and they are also growing in the regions.

I would like to emphasize that what I said concerns the investment tax deduction in the constituent entities of the Russian Federation. In addition to it, a federal deduction will be introduced as part of the reconfiguration of the tax system, which aims to encourage business investment in development, achieve greater social justice and reduce inequality between citizens. In the near future, together with business associations, we need to determine the parameters and volumes of the federal investment deduction so that it becomes an effective and widely used tool.

Returning to the work of the constituent entities of the Russian Federation to support business activity, I would like to mention such a mechanism as the regional investment standard. Its task-based on the requests and recommendations of business-is to ensure uniform principles for attracting investors throughout the country. In other words, to create a universal investment ecosystem in each region, to create a clear algorithm of actions for business, for the placement of production facilities.

Such support measures, of course, are available to all of us and are in demand. To date, the regional investment standard has been implemented in all regions of the Russian Federation, and specialized specialists responsible for interaction with investors have been trained.

Dear colleagues! Friends!

I would like to thank the regional teams, business associations, and the Government for their work. I know that there is a proposal to fix the investment standard by law. I suggest that the Government discuss this issue with the business community and the regions.

At the same time, I would like to emphasize that the current task is to promote this mechanism and actively apply it in practice – this is our goal for the near future in this area. And for those teams that will achieve the best results here, I think it is necessary to provide incentive mechanisms at the level of the Government of the Russian Federation.

I would like to note that the launch of the regional investment standard has allowed many regions of the Russian Federation to make a breakthrough in the national rating of the state of the investment climate. Traditionally, its results are presented on the site of our forum. I'll tell you a little more about them.

Over the past year, thanks to the exchange of experience and replication of leadership practices, 74 regions of Russia have improved their integral index. This is much more than a year earlier. Among the regions that showed the best dynamics are the republics of Buryatia, Mordovia, as well as the Lipetsk, Ryazan, and Arkhangelsk regions. I congratulate my colleagues on the results achieved and wish you further success.

I would like to add that we will also improve the national investment climate rating, including sharing best practices in this area with our BRICS partners. In addition, at a recent meeting of the Supervisory Board of the Agency for Strategic Initiatives, we agreed to finalize the rating methodology and use the national model of targeted business conditions as a basis. This is our improved and more objective equivalent of international ratings.

Dear colleagues!

The third major structural change we are seeking is a new quality of the labor market. Today, Russia has a record low unemployment rate, which was only 2.6 percent in April. What is especially important: we have reduced its so-called structural component, that is, youth unemployment and unemployment in those regions and localities where it was historically high have significantly decreased.

Even 15-20 years ago, the main question was how to find a job, and now-where to find personnel. In these circumstances, it is important to reconfigure the system of professional education to meet the demands of the labor market, to train modern, in-demand specialists, to create opportunities for employees, and to improve their professional level throughout their working career.

To do this, we make a forecast of the personnel needs of the domestic economy. On its basis, we will also transform the system of professional education and development. By the end of the current decade, the share of skilled employment in our labor market should increase, that is, specialists working in industries with high added value, and therefore with higher wages. I repeat: the task of the personnel development system is to ensure such a transformation.

The federal project "Professionalitet" plays an important role here. It has already allowed us to start modernizing the material and technical base of colleges and technical schools, updating educational programs for aviation and shipbuilding, pharmaceuticals, electronics, defense and other industries. About a million specialists of working professions will have to be trained for these areas by 2028. We have already talked about this many times, and I just want to remind you about it today.

As for higher education, in the next ten years, 40 university campuses will appear in Russia with advanced conditions and opportunities for students to study, research, live and work. I would like to emphasize once again that we will evaluate the work of Russian universities, colleges, and technical schools based on how much their graduates are in demand and how their salaries are growing.

At the same time, our economy needs not only young personnel, but also experienced, knowledgeable specialists who are competent in their field and can teach their colleagues a lot and become real mentors for them. In this regard, it is important to support the aspirations of people who have reached retirement age to continue working and bring benefits. Their knowledge, skills, and competencies are an important resource for the economy and social sphere.

What is it about? We are talking about the salary level of working pensioners. We have been discussing this topic for a long time. We have just discussed this issue at a meeting with the Governor of St. Petersburg [Alexander Beglov], right before our meeting.

I would like to mention a decision that was repeatedly raised during my meetings with citizens. Due to financial and budgetary constraints, pensions for working pensioners were not indexed in previous years. During this time, the issue that concerns millions of our citizens, as they say, has matured, and today we have the resources to start solving it in the interests of the people.

I propose to resume indexation of pensions for working pensioners starting next year. (Applause.) Starting from February 1, 2025 and beyond, pensions will be increased annually not only for those who have already taken a well-deserved rest, but also for those who continue to work. It will be really fair.

I ask the United Russia party, together with the Government, to prepare the relevant draft law and adopt it in the spring session. I know that all other factions represented in the parliament will certainly support this.

Further. The fourth structural change is directly related to improving the efficiency of the economy. This indicator is defined in the May decree until the end of the current decade. Taking into account the demographic challenges we face and the objective shortage of personnel, the most important condition for achieving high rates of economic growth is to increase labor productivity. This is the most important resource.

Today I have already mentioned the need to increase investment and upgrade our enterprises. It is important to ensure this on a qualitatively new technological basis with a broad application of automation. So, Russia should enter the top 25 countries in the world in terms of robotics density in a short period of time. This means installing more than 100 thousand robots, and their production needs to be developed rapidly in our country on our own technological base, and we certainly have this opportunity.

At the same time, it is also important to increase the efficiency of existing equipment and technological processes. The key tool here is the dissemination of lean manufacturing techniques. This work is carried out within the framework of a specialized national project. More than six thousand enterprises and more than 120 thousand specialists have already taken part in it.

The current year is the final one for the current national project. It is necessary to extend the federal projects included in it as part of the new national project "Efficient and Competitive Economy". Moreover, it is necessary to expand this practice in order to involve at least 40 percent of medium-sized and large enterprises in basic non-primary sectors of the economy, as well as all state and municipal organizations of the social sphere in projects to increase labor productivity by 2030. For enterprises and companies, this will mean increasing output, improving the quality of services, and for their employees – more comfortable working conditions and, of course, increasing wages. Let me remind you that over the next six years, they should add at a rate higher than the gross domestic product.

The fifth structural change is a true digital platform revolution. In modern conditions, labor productivity is directly related to digitalization, using artificial intelligence technologies. By 2030, we will have to create digital platforms in all key sectors of the economy and social sphere. These tasks will be solved within the framework of the new national project "Data Economy".

I would like to add that over the next six years, at least 80 percent of Russian organizations in key sectors of the economy should switch to domestic software in their production and management processes. To support the IT industry, we will provide for a number of measures, including accounting for an increased expense ratio for domestic digital solutions when calculating income tax, and we will also set a reduced income tax rate of five percent for Russian IT companies. It will be valid until 2030 inclusive.

I ask the Government to work out additional measures to support domestic software developers, including determining the level of purchases of companies with state participation from small technology companies and startups. I repeat, this is the guaranteed level, below which the volume of purchases cannot fall. We are already using this mechanism, and it works quite effectively. We must continue it, of course.

And of course, it is important to actively apply digital solutions in the construction and housing and communal services sector, using them to reduce the time and cost of projects. I would like to note that over the past five years, due to the elimination of administrative barriers and clearly excessive requirements, the duration of the investment construction cycle has almost halved. I will not list everything that has been done, a lot has been done, but there is still a lot to work on. We will continue this work to build more roads, bridges, factories and, of course, comfortable affordable housing with high modern energy and resource efficiency parameters in Russia.

In this regard, the housing and utilities sector and road construction have enormous potential, including the use of secondary resources, the use of so-called smart solutions and "green" standards based on advanced technologies.

In this regard, the sixth structural change is accelerated, outstripping the saturation of economic sectors with modern technologies and innovations. This may be one of the key areas. In six years, we plan to enter the top ten world leaders in terms of research and development. Domestic expenditures for these purposes should increase to at least two percent of GDP.

In this logic, a number of new national projects in the field of technological sovereignty will be launched in such key areas as means of production and automation, new materials, chemistry, promising space services, energy technologies and a number of others.

In these projects, a whole range of solutions will be implemented: from popularizing science and training personnel, supporting scientific developments and establishing mass production to creating a guaranteed demand for high-tech products. I would like to emphasize that the so-called core colleges, universities and research institutes will be identified as part of the projects. They should become the basis for the rapid growth of new industries in our country.

Of course, we need to improve the legal framework for business operations, so that companies feel confident and invest in promising high-tech initiatives with a long horizon. I would like to note that we have a huge intellectual and creative potential here, and it is important for us to fully realize it, and positive trends are certainly being outlined. So, in the first four months of this year alone, almost eight thousand applications for inventions and 3.5 thousand applications for utility models were submitted in Russia, primarily in areas of critical importance for our country, such as metallurgy, energy, transport, and engine construction.

It is extremely important to protect the intellectual property of our developers, as well as the commercial effectiveness of their solutions, so that inventions do not fall on the shelf, but go through the entire chain: from purchase to implementation in a specific product. In particular, it is necessary to provide for the possibility of transferring patents for scientific developments – so some experts believe – from the customer to their creators, as well as to small innovative enterprises and technology companies that know how to commercialize inventions and are ready to do so. But, as a person with a basic legal education, of course, I understand where the "ambush" is here, and legal arbitrariness cannot be allowed. If someone has already paid for a certain invention, he is the owner, this is obvious. But we need to create such a soft market mechanism for using these inventions so that they do not lie on the shelf. Of course, we should all think about this issue together, both in the Parliament and in the Government.

In this regard, the seventh most important structural change is the transformation of strengthening the role of small and medium-sized businesses in the development of the economy. Today, there are about 6.5 million small and medium-sized businesses in our country. If six years ago we set a goal to increase the number of people employed in this sector to 25 million, and it seemed that this was very difficult. Let me remind you that some colleagues laughed and said that this was an unrealistic task. Today we can confidently say that this goal has been achieved and achieved ahead of schedule.

Our entrepreneurs, including the younger generation, are well and confidently gaining momentum, occupying the market, and setting up production of products that often surpass foreign ones in their characteristics.

In addition, Russian business understands that its own trademark becomes a proof of quality, a solid economic asset. The number of such applications for clothing and footwear, software, pharmaceuticals, household chemicals, perfumes and cosmetics, confectionery and so on is growing. Last year, more than 143,000 trademark applications were filed, which is twice as many as in the pre-launch year of 2019.

By the way, the trademark registration process in Russia is one of the most convenient and fastest in the world, it is completely digitized. The application review period is four months, and an electronic security certificate is issued based on the results.

What is especially important is that distinctive regional and local brands are increasingly being registered. This is, of course, a tribute to the culture and traditions of our peoples, a testament to the pride of entrepreneurs for their small homeland, for the region where they conduct their business. And of course, business sees that people want to buy domestic goods produced in Russia.

By the way, many of the regional brands belong to the so-called creative industries. More than half of the federal subjects are already systematically contributing to their development.

I ask you to adopt a federal law in the spring parliamentary session that will set a clear legal framework for the creative industry, and in the future will allow setting common standards for its support.

We will create all conditions for small and medium-sized companies to grow even faster in our country, improve the effectiveness of existing support measures, and also offer new ones in addition to them.

I would like to note that the so-called marketplaces play a significant role in the development of a start-up, small-scale business. Together with Russian Post, they form a modern infrastructure, a kind of circulatory system for delivering domestic products, and allow companies even in remote cities and towns to gain access to the large market of Russia and the entire Eurasian Economic Union.

I ask my colleagues in the Government to pay special attention to the development of such commodity flows in the implementation of the updated strategy of Russian Post and in general in the formation of national projects.

I would like to add that the All-Russian competition "Know Our People" has been launched to help domestic businesses promote their products. This year, the number of applications for the contest has increased 2.5 times, they came from absolutely all regions of the Russian Federation. In short, the contest is growing and has established itself as a real business elevator.

It is important that such successful practices are actively applied at the regional level as well. I would like to draw the attention of my fellow governors to this.

I would like to mention one more point in particular. Almost all participants of the contest and in general many domestic entrepreneurs support military personnel and veterans of the special military operation, their families, relatives and friends of our heroes, send their products to the units, buy things, equipment, and help hospitals. Such a high understanding of social mission, responsibility, and patriotism in the truest and best sense of the word is certainly very valuable and deserves great respect. Thank you.

Dear colleagues!

The next and eighth most important structural change is related to unlocking the potential of Russia's regions. This is a new geography of development, creating growth points in cities and towns throughout the country, opportunities for people not only in the capitals, but also in small towns and rural areas to acquire a profession, find a well-paid job or run their own business, realize themselves, live and raise children in comfortable, modern conditions.

Next year, new national projects and state programs will be launched to develop education and health systems, sports, culture, and improve the ecological well-being of our cities and villages.

Of course, we need an economic base for all our measures in the social sphere and in demography, for the implementation of federal and regional programs. It is formed locally, in the constituent entities of the Russian Federation. We will strengthen the economic opportunities of the regions.

In this regard, including in the Government, plans are being discussed to transfer the main structures of our largest corporations and state-owned companies to the regions of the Russian Federation. The idea certainly needs to be worked out, but it deserves attention and support. There are positive examples here. For example, RusHydro moved from Moscow to Krasnoyarsk.

And of course, it is important to concentrate resources on promising growth points. This approach is provided for in the master plans for the Far Eastern and Arctic regions. We have agreed to approve similar programs and documents for another 200 localities. They will include all regional centers, as well as cities that play an important role in strengthening Russia's technological sovereignty.

For a strong, long-term development of the regions, it is important to eliminate restrictions in the energy sector, in the transport system, to build and repair roads, engineering and utility networks. For the implementation of such projects, the constituent entities of the Russian Federation receive infrastructure budget loans. As I have already said, their volume will be increased starting next year.

This portfolio will grow by at least 250 billion rubles annually, and in general, by the end of 2030, the amount of infrastructure budget loans issued will amount to 2.5 trillion rubles. Moreover, the funds will be distributed not only on the basis of limits for each subject of the Federation, but also based on the results of the competition of regional and interregional projects.

I would like to mention another decision that has already been made, which will support regional finances. We are starting to write off two-thirds of previously issued budget loans. What is important: the funds that will be released will be used by the constituent entities of the Russian Federation to support investments, including the creation of industrial parks and infrastructure of priority development territories, as well as infrastructure: updating housing and utilities systems, building roads and bridges, upgrading public transport and settling emergency housing, master plans, and so on. I ask the Government to work out all the details of this mechanism in a dialogue with the regions in the near future.

Further. In addition to addressing infrastructure bottlenecks, it is necessary to widely involve inefficiently used land plots, for example, with abandoned and unfinished buildings – and there are tens of thousands of such objects throughout the country. With the right approach, they will serve people and bring profit to businesses. According to the Prosecutor General's Office, for example, in Russia there are more than 181 thousand unattended and abandoned buildings and structures. No more than a third of them are registered, and only a fifth of them have their rights registered.

Sometimes there are garbage dumps in abandoned areas. As a rule, they are abandoned, and municipalities do not have the money to eliminate them. I propose the following solution. If an entrepreneur is ready to eliminate such a landfill at his own expense, then you can think about transferring the corresponding land plot to him for free for use or ownership.

I ask the Government to hold appropriate consultations with the constituent entities of the Russian Federation. With some of them, think about what is available to many federal agencies, as well as in an unattended state, and is not used. It is necessary to work out all the details here and, of course, not to build up bureaucratic barriers, not to allow abuse or "withdrawal" of land plots from cities and towns. Of course, you need to think about it, but you definitely need to do something about it.

I am sure that an effective solution to this problem will not only improve the urban environment, make citizens' lives more comfortable, but also directly work to increase the capitalization of urban assets, attract small and medium-sized businesses, developers with interesting residential development projects.

In this regard, two words about mortgage lending. As you know, we have extended the family mortgage until 2030. All Russian families with children under the age of six can get a preferential loan at a rate of six percent.

I propose here additional special solutions in the social sphere for families who live or want to buy housing in small towns or in regions where the volume of housing construction is still insufficient. Here, families with two children will be able to take advantage of a family mortgage at six percent-regardless of the age of the children. The only condition: make sure that at least one child in the family is a minor at the time of making the mortgage.

And more. The same preferential mortgage conditions will apply in all regions of Russia for every family that wants to build their own house. This is especially important for large, large families.

I ask the Government to launch these programs as early as July 1 of this year.

I would like to add that in order to improve the appearance of cities, we will continue the All-Russian competition for the best projects for creating a comfortable urban environment. This program is really popular and meets with a good feedback from people. We will also launch a program for the construction and improvement of embankments and parks.

A separate area will be the restoration and reconstruction of cultural and historical heritage sites. By 2030, we need to put at least a thousand such sites in order across the country, give them a second life, so that they serve people, serve to save and strengthen our identity, decorate cities and villages, and increase their tourist attractiveness.

The development of domestic tourism is one of the priorities of our long-term strategy. In six years, the share of the tourism industry in the gross domestic product should increase to five percent, and the number of trips around the country with hotel accommodation should grow to 140 million people. We will create comfortable and affordable conditions for recreation, including the construction of hotels and small campsites, ski resorts and amusement parks.

Our economic and social policies must be not only effective, but also fair. And in this sense, the next, ninth structural shift is the reduction of poverty, the reduction of inequality, and the growth of incomes of Russian families, which, in turn, directly affects the quality of life of people, the increase in domestic demand and the capacity of the national market. All tools should work to solve this problem, including payments to families with children, tax deductions, and social contracts.

And of course, the main tool, as I have already mentioned today, is to ensure faster wage growth. Here I will add an important decision concerning the indexation of the minimum wage. It already exceeds the cost of living, as defined in the Constitution, and in the future we will link its indexation to the overall growth of wages in the economy.

Starting next year, the ratio of the minimum wage to the median salary received by the majority of people employed in our economy will be established. In 2025, the minimum wage will be 48 percent of the median salary, so it will exceed 22 thousand rubles a month [about $255], that is, it will grow by about 15 percent more. Then the ratio with the median salary will increase so that, as agreed, by 2030 the minimum wage will be at least 35 thousand rubles per month.

Finally, the tenth structural change, which is integral in its essence – is the improvement of the quality of life of Russian families. This was discussed in detail in the Message to the Federal Assembly. I repeat, all areas are of fundamental importance here: supporting the birth rate and large families, protecting motherhood and childhood, increasing the availability of long-term care for the elderly and disabled, improving education and health systems, and improving the quality of the living environment.

The result, the manifestation of state changes, should be an increase in life expectancy, and with an emphasis on the growth of an active, healthy life. Of course, the formation of equal opportunities to realize the potential of the younger generations to increase the standard of living of Russian families.

Dear colleagues! Friends!

The global economy has entered an era of major, fundamental changes. A multipolar world is emerging with new growth centers, investment and financial links between states and companies. The Russian economy is responding to these challenges and is also changing dynamically, gaining more strength and stability.

This is largely due to our workers, engineers, managers and, of course, entrepreneurs, who are increasing their investments in the development of their companies, enterprises, cities and regions, bringing to the fore such values as responsibility, trust, service to their people and their country.

We will increase our support for positive changes in society and in the economy. This is what our long–term systemic plans to strengthen our country's financial, technological, and human resources sovereignty and improve the business climate are focused on-–achieving national development goals. And in this work, we are open to the widest possible cooperation with all interested partners: with foreign companies, countries, and integration associations.

I thank you for your long patience and wish you every success.

Thank you very much.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you very much, Mr President, for your brilliant speech. I think that it inspires cheerfulness in those present, in those who listen to us all over the country and in our guys who are fighting at the front against another aggression of the West. This is correct speech.

It is with great pleasure that I now give the floor to Luis Arce, President of Bolivia.

Please, Mr. Arce.

President Arce: A large thank you!

I wish you all a good evening!

I would like to welcome my distinguished colleague, Russian President Vladimir Putin. Thank you for inviting me to this important forum.

I would like to extend a warm welcome to the President of Zimbabwe and our moderator, all of you who are present in this room today. I would like to convey to you a warm greeting on behalf of the Bolivian people, which I am proud to represent here.

I would like to thank the organizers for their hospitality and for the wonderful invitation to participate in this major international forum in the historic city on the Neva River, St. Petersburg, where the first socialist revolution in the world took place and years later they were able to defeat fascism. The blockade lasted three years, and it was broken.

I am sure that we all believe that today the world order is moving towards a more just and balanced state, based on multipolarity and multilateralism. Of course, we expect that there will be various discussions about the transition to a new multipolar model of the world economy, in which, without any doubt, we will be able to learn valuable experience from the Russian economy and see what a serious role it will play in the new world.

This exchange is very important for everyone, especially for those countries that are represented here and many of which have fallen victim to the model of an economy that is divided into centers and peripheries.

This situation has led us to the fact that we are a country that produces and exports only one group of goods and has led to deindustrialization. So, the Bolivian economy became dependent and became an enclave, a market that accepts imports.

Today we have a large number of miners, those who extract minerals and supply them to world markets. But State-building in Bolivia could not change this situation, because neocolonialism was deploying its networks. That is why our government, within the framework of a new multinational state, listened to the demands and aspirations of our people and began the process of industrialization to achieve national sovereignty and liberation.

Industrialization and import substitution in our country have been an important part of the agenda since the 19th century, and we must gain genuine economic independence and political sovereignty in order to achieve this goal. We see that we have a large number of challenges that we are facing.

Therefore, Bolivia believes that the possibility of joining the BRICS group is an excellent prospect for our country to carry out transformations, transformations in our country, along with accelerated industrialization.

By coming together, the economies of this successful combination were able to shake the hegemony of the United States. They are a hope for developing cooperation and complementarity between countries.

As we know, today's world reflects the crisis of capitalism in many dimensions. These are the financial crisis, climate, energy, food, water resources, macroeconomics, and institutions. We see this in the case of international organizations. One of the characteristics of this crisis with different dimensions is that today a climate has been created that contradicts the development of the world.

In order to counteract this international situation and talk about a different development model from the orthodox one, we are developing our own economic model in Bolivia – a communitarian production socio-economic model. This is a model that differs from what neoliberalism tried to impose on us, because we have very serious social protection and support measures.

We are based on our basic, fundamental values, which are inherent in the indigenous people, and, of course, we focus on production, which is a mechanism for increasing wealth. This model was developed based on the characteristics that are typical for our Bolivian economy, for our society. It operates and works actively.

First of all, this model is based on economic growth and development, it is based on the use of natural resources for the benefit of our Bolivian people. This is a model that aims to industrialize and increase production.

Since colonial times, a huge amount of natural resources has been found in Bolivia. You can, for example, recall Cerro Rico de Potosi. This is a silver deposit, the largest, largest silver deposit that we have ever had. We also have the world's largest reserves of lithium, gold, zinc, gas, silver, copper, rare earth metals, and so on. All of these strategic sectors of our economy will help us achieve better development, and they certainly serve the purpose of distributing benefits among the members of society, given the programs that our Government are implementing and the emphasis on those sectors of the economy that increase the incomes of our population and provide jobs.

This process is not only aimed at a more equitable distribution of income, reducing inequality, which is very common in many countries. We also want to invest in other sectors of our economy, diversifying the economy, creating jobs, raising incomes, and ensuring sustainable development and growth with a broad-based economy.

In our case, we strive for import substitution, as well as to attract tourist flows, develop tourism, and increase agricultural productivity, always in harmony with mother earth. Therefore, our model aims to diversify the economy on a broad basis and improve the quality of life of our population. And the ultimate goal of all this process is, of course, to eliminate poverty and reduce inequality.

The socio-economic model of development in Bolivia has been implemented since 2006. We have achieved serious economic and social results, good results. For example, Bolivia's GDP increased from $ 945 million in 2006 to $ 45 billion 464 million last year, and its per capita GDP increased in 2023 from $ 1,037 to $ 3,736. In December of that year, we had a huge number of employees-more than 6 million, this is the largest employment in history, 75 percent.

We were able to reduce poverty from 71 percent in 2005 to 36 percent last year, and extreme poverty fell from 38 percent in 2005 to 11.9 percent in 2023, and the Gini index fell from 0.6 to 0.43 in 2023. Thus, the economic model has achieved serious economic success and social progress.

In this context of the global economic slowdown and declining growth rates in many developing economies and growing poverty and inequality in many countries, our model of socio-economic complementary development of Bolivia is an alternative for developing countries. This model has shown that there is an opportunity to encourage sustainable growth that is less subject to fluctuations, in contrast to those countries that are supporters of the free market.

Our model for developing the Bolivian economy also aims to reduce inequality and poverty through distributional policies and price stability. In the rest of the world, we see that inflation is breaking all records.

Also, given the difficult economic situation in the international arena, we see that logistics costs and interest rates are growing at the international level. We see that this is destabilizing the situation in many countries. And our growth rate last year was 3.1 percent, which is the second indicator in South America, higher than the forecasts given by international organizations.

This model and its socio-economic results are proof that there cannot be only one single vision for the development of the economy and society. Different ways of development can co-exist on our planet, and, of course, all this is the responsibility of the sovereign decisions of countries. They make decisions about their economic and political structure, and this should be the leitmotif around the world.

We see that our model is an alternative to neo-colonialism based on the dollar, which wants economies to depend on it, and undermines multilateralism by imposing a one-sided world order. The Bolivian economy guarantees people's social and economic engagement.

We have reduced inequality and managed to create a more homogeneous society. Thus, the hypothesis is proved that a country can grow faster when income is distributed more evenly across the economy.

And today we see that within the framework of a multilateral, multipolar world, we must work to eliminate inequality. It is true that emerging economies are trying to strengthen their domestic markets, raise incomes, and reduce inequality.

But what distinguishes our model is that we have been able to become one of the fastest growing economies in Latin America over the past two decades.

Another element of a multipolar world is cooperation and technology exchange between countries. For example, those countries that are still developing need to increase their technological capacity. Together with the Russian Federation, we share the concern that technologies are not being allowed to serve humanity today. They should serve humanity, not companies, multinational corporations, or individual countries.

Today, it is paradoxical that development costs the most in the poorest countries. Any project or infrastructure cost requires an increase in the estimate in order to meet environmental standards. And this is imposed on us by developed countries.

We see that it is necessary to practice cooperation, exchange and transfer of technologies also in the field of healthcare. This was evident when the world faced the COVID-19 pandemic. We understand that there may be new pathologies, new diseases in the future. At the same time, we are fighting for a healthier society that is based on the values of our millennial traditional cultures. These are Native American cultures that are alien to the principles that are now being implanted everywhere in the one-sided world of capitalism.

We see that a multipolar world is being built today, and in it we must distribute our own currencies in order to conduct settlements between countries. We cannot allow any one country to become the world's central bank and determine monetary policy around the world. These times have already passed, because now the new structure of the economy and finance has changed dramatically.

We also monitor socio-economic development based on the sovereignty of states, without outside interference. All peoples, all nations, and their sovereign decisions about the use of their natural resources must be respected. Therefore, Bolivia relies on multipolarity, which is part of the historical destiny of humanity.

Building a multipolar world, however, certainly faces risks and threats. For example, you need to guarantee food to the population, which continues to grow. We have already said that one of the serious problems of modern capitalism is the food crisis, and the solution to this problem must, of course, be carried out within the framework of the multipolarity paradigm. We need to create cooperation programs that aim to produce food products all over the world. To do this, there is no doubt that we need to exchange technologies that will increase agricultural productivity. This should also be one of the foundations for the economic development of a multipolar world.

We see that today, unfortunately, many countries have high rates of poverty, malnutrition and lack of public services. We see that a large amount of money is being spent on the arms race and the construction of bases in other countries that are not the territory of the countries that are building these bases. We also believe that, like Russia and the BRICS countries, we are concerned about the threats of hybrid warfare in many dimensions, which harms our development and industrialization.

We see today that there is an oligarchy that serves other people's interests, and we talk about this at conferences, academic conferences, and security conferences. For example, a strategic resource like Bolivian lithium can help industrialize Russia, China, and other developing countries. Threats to the stability of our Government, the discontinuation of industrialization and our model of economic development in Bolivia can lead to the fact that our political project can be curtailed.

We have a huge amount of priceless natural resources, and we want to extract these resources, bringing as little harm to the environment as possible and for the benefit of humanity. This, of course, should be a mutually beneficial cooperation. Today we should not see such practices as the mono-production of one crop or the extraction of one element or mineral.

We are saying that today we are moving towards the concept of a multipolar world and the creation of new blocs, such as the BRICS group. We need to move forward with the building of such alliances and alliances as soon as possible in order to advance the goals of this forum. They also coincide with the Bolivian national goals.

We must join forces and achieve a multipolar world. This is the road that guarantees stability, peace, development and happiness of our peoples in balance and harmony with Mother earth. We must live well on our planet.

Thank you.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you, Mr. President, for your very interesting and instructive speech. It proved once again that the science of economics is not a national science and is not a science at all – it is an art! And each country should choose its own model.

In this regard, I immediately have a question for Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, perhaps we can make up our minds and you can instruct us, with the participation of economists like Luis Arce, to develop our own model. We are doing something – obviously, but it is quite clear that we have not yet decided what we are doing. Moreover, we have begun to strongly develop the military-industrial complex, and we are succeeding using the poke method. I don't think we have a master plan.

Perhaps, within the framework of the Economic Forum, we will create a permanent structure that will use, first of all, our own brains, of course, first of all the brains of our practitioners? Because, unfortunately, most of the academic economists–-I know them, I am a former economist myself, although there are no former ones, of course--are stuck in the old model.

Vladimir Vladimirovich, would you like us, the St. Petersburg Forum, to set up a working group to develop a new model? It, this group, can be collected here – on the forum margins, next to the forum. Maybe we'll come up with something original for ourselves and figure out where we're going.

Vladimir Putin: I feel that we will not have a discussion, but an argument, because what you said sounds offensive to the Government of the Russian Federation and to other structures. You said: we are doing something. I spent an hour explaining what we were doing. (Laughter) I think you took a little nap, grunted, as they say in the people, and did not hear anything that I said. I spent an hour telling you what we were going to do, a whole ten-point program.

Therefore, we are not doing anything, but we are working on a new development strategy. We have it, and we spent a whole year [doing it] – and we did it not only by ourselves, but together with the brains that you mentioned, that is, with the business community, with their associations at permanent meetings and meetings. We didn't do anything privately.

You suggest creating some structures. They are the Government of the Russian Federation, the Central Bank, and part of the Russian Presidential Administration.

Now, as you said about setting up a working group within the framework of the St. Petersburg Economic Forum, which could do something on the sidelines of the forum. We know a well-known expression, we know who it belongs to: if you want to fail the case, create a working group.

But I must confess to you: we already have so many working groups, and I don't know where I should chair these working groups. When [information] arrives, it's just another group: we need you to lead it. I say: okay, I'll definitely think about it. And you can go to the fields here, but only in summer, because in winter in St. Petersburg it is cold in the fields. (Laughter.)

But in general, in principle, you are known to the country–-and not only as an economist, but as a political scientist, and bright and quite energetic and aggressive in some areas of thought. But it is always interesting to listen to such people–-I speak without flattery, without everything. Moreover, I confess that sometimes I even read what you write and say. Therefore, we do not refuse–-we are open to any discussions that will benefit the Russian economy.

Sergey Karaganov: Well, of course, I will agree with my President, but only with one clarification: what kind of model are we building in general--do we know? I would call authoritarian social capitalism an ideal model for Russia, so that it is clear where we are going. Because we are supposedly going the right way, and we used to go the liberal way—I don't understand.

Of course, the Government is doing something, and we are proud of what it is doing, thank God, it has started to do. But, by the way, I started doing it only when the rooster pecked, because until the rooster pecked, nothing happened.

Vladimir Putin: We'll put the rooster in the soup, don't worry. Because he doesn't trample on chickens! Why do you need it, this rooster?

As for the model, I recently said at a meeting with the heads of world news agencies: we need to look at what is happening in the world. And what did I say? Let's say that the Chinese model of the economy is considered by many experts to be more effective than those that have existed so far, including the North American and European ones – it is more effective, it is true, about what you just said – where both elements of planned principles and a market economy are combined. The Chinese managed to do this in their conditions, and I agree with this assessment – it is true, the figures for economic growth show this, this is an obvious thing. But it is effective for the Chinese society, for the Chinese economy.

You know what I agree with? When you described my colleague's speech, you said that economics is a science to a certain extent, but also an art to a certain extent. It probably is. After all, such models are rigid, when a common measure is imposed on different countries that are in different conditions, at different stages of their development. Naked schemes do not work or work poorly–-we must always proceed from the realities, proceed from the realities of our country. And here everything is very important: our history, our culture, and the internal state of society, real development is very important, what works effectively in our society and what does not.

Of course, there are basic things – we take these basic things into account. The rooster is there, not a rooster, but 3.4 or 3.6 [percent] growth [of GDP] in our country last year – not yet fully calculated-is still an indicator. And 5.4 [percent] in the first quarter of this year is also an indicator. But this is still the result of our joint work: both the Government and the business community, to a certain extent the Central Bank and the Presidential Administration, are the result of our purposeful activities.

I just talked about what is the basis of our model: we are creating this skeleton. We are constantly making some decisions related to the adjustment of our economic model.

Sergey Karaganov: I, like any Russian citizen, am glad that over the past two years, in connection with the operation that we are conducting at the front, we have finally got down to business. We were a little adrift before that. That is why I am talking about the need to develop a fairly clear understanding of where we are going. In principle, we will come back to this later.

Let's listen to Mr. Emmerson Mnangagwa now. Please listen to your experience. After all, the country developed in the most difficult conditions: you are under sanctions – how many years already? Almost all the time of its existence. Nevertheless, they survived and even began to develop. How did you do it?

:(as translated)E. Mnangagwa Your Excellencies, Mr. Vladimir Putin President of the Russian Federation! Your Excellency Luis Arce, President of the Plurinational State of Bolivia, Dear guests, Ladies and gentlemen,

Let me express my sincere gratitude to our host country, our brother and dear colleague Mr. Putin. Thank you for your hospitality. Thank you for creating this platform so that we can discuss the most important issues that affect us all in the current global situation.

Your Excellency, allow me, on behalf of the people, the Government of Zimbabwe and myself, to congratulate you once again on your election as President of the Russian Federation. Your commitment to the well-being and prosperity of your people and to protecting the independence of peace and security, as well as the territorial integrity of the Russian Federation, is unprecedented. Zimbabwe is confident that your continued leadership will accelerate the achievements and prosperity of your Homeland, the Russian Federation.

Your Excellencies,

Unfortunately, this is unacceptable, but the collective West continues to pursue the aspirations of the hegemon, which violate the sovereign equality of States, justice, which is embodied in the Charter of the United Nations.

There is a general consensus that a unipolar world has no place in current global politics and international economic relations. The reality is that there must be a redistribution of power between States, as well as the emergence of multiple centers of economic growth, innovation, and cultural influence.

We recognize that a multipolar world brings with it both the opportunities and challenges that humanity faces today. The old geopolitical global order, which was defined by a few elected members, has led to the permanent marginalization of most of us in the global South, and this is no longer acceptable.

The situation in which some Western states are trying to dictate to us who we should be friends with-–we will also never agree with this in Zimbabwe. Promoting and encouraging a multipolar world has greater potential for us, for Africa and for the developing third world to realize balanced, inclusive development, modernization and industrialization.

We in Zimbabwe are guided by the philosophy that we are friends with everyone and do not antagonize anyone. We are convinced that mutually beneficial cooperation, partnership and investment, together with complementarity, are the most reliable foundation for a multipolar world and for creating new growth points.

In this regard, we welcome the transformation of the global economic structure and geopolitical landscape through the BRICS organization and the expansion of this association along with other emerging economies.

In this effort, Africa's role remains crucial, not only as a supplier of raw materials, but also as a reliable global partner in all areas of humanitarian and other development. We are exploring new areas of growth. Africa's rich mineral resources must be harnessed to advance the path of sustainable development and promote well-being and prosperity.

The new global supply chains require that Africa receive all the support requested in terms of its fair share. In addition, it is necessary to expand the production capacity of African countries. This is most necessary from the point of view of the fact that Africa is endowed with enormous natural resources, valuable materials, large territories suitable for agriculture, as well as a significant population, which is characterized by an entrepreneurial spirit.

The African Continental Free Trade Area is another factor of development within the mutually beneficial multipolar, global world order.

In the case of Zimbabwe, we call for the removal of the illegal sanctions you mentioned, which are holding back our economic development and progress. This has been happening for the past few decades.

What is our crime? The crime of the people of Zimbabwe is that they have demanded the return of their rightful land so that the people of Zimbabwe and their ancient lands can be reunited.

We need to move forward. However, it is not easy for Zimbabwe to achieve its goals given the sanctions that have been imposed on us. We need strategic investments in key economic sectors. This is the key to unlocking our full potential. Such sectors include infrastructure, education, science, renewable energy sectors, and climate change mitigation measures are also required.

Excellencies, Zimbabwe is open to doing business. Zimbabwe welcomes investment, partnership and cooperation in all sectors of the economy.

Technologies and innovations serve as a catalyst for growth, as they have the ability to build bridges between countries, create new sectors of the economy and achieve fundamental changes in the economic system.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel to take our economy to the next level. As a result, we are entering the era of the digital revolution, making investments in science, technology, innovative ecosystems, and contributing to the development of education based on the promotion of digital literacy in all state universities.

Our ambition is to take Zimbabwe to a new level of development, turning it into an upper-middle-income country by 2030. To this end, we use partnership, collaboration and collaboration tools to bring this vision to life.

At the national level, we are trying to use our strategic geographical position. We are located in the center of Africa, in its southern part. We have huge reserves of talent, highly qualified human resources, and natural resources. We are ready to take advantage of the opportunities that open up with new growth prospects and increased trade.

We also cordially invite our brothers from the Russian Federation, investors from the Russian Federation, to explore numerous investment opportunities in our country – Zimbabwe.

Excellencies, in a multipolar world, solidarity and cooperation between countries are imperative. The challenges we face in the areas of peace, security, climate change, pandemics, and economic inequality, in particular, require us to take collective action at the global level, and they require cooperation. This should be at the heart of our common desire for peace and development, a development in which no one is left behind anywhere.

In this regard, Zimbabwe views the Russian Federation as an important global ally. In order to take advantage of the opportunities that open up in a multipolar world, it is necessary to change the paradigm and find a new approach to cooperation. Synergy, investment, partnership – this is where we need to work, and Zimbabwe is ready to contribute to these transformative processes.

We are embarking on this journey together, and let's not forget that strength lies in unity, adaptability, and innovation. By working together, we can build a multipolar world that is more just and inclusive, and that is more prosperous for the benefit of all.

Zimbabwe, despite a 25-year-old regime of sanctions imposed by the West for crimes that include reclaiming our land, is suffering from these sanctions. These sanctions have been applied to Zimbabwe for the past 25 years, but thanks to the sustainability and peace that we have managed to establish in our country, Zimbabwe's GDP is growing. As part of the second republic, since 2018, we have managed to increase our GDP to $ 69 billion in 2023, again, despite the sanctions imposed against Zimbabwe.

We also, as a people living under the sanctions regime, decided to adhere to the following philosophy. The philosophy is that a country is built, developed and protected by its own people.

We are a small country, located in the Southern Hemisphere, but we have extensive agricultural land. Agriculture is undergoing modernization and mechanization, and thanks to these processes, we can become one of the most important factors in ensuring food security in our region. We hope that, in particular, the first world (the so-called developed countries) will help us bring our economy and agriculture to a new level.

In conclusion, Your Excellency, dear Brother, President Putin, allow me to thank you on behalf of the Government and people of Zimbabwe, as well as on my own behalf, for the generous and timely gift that you gave to our country in its hour of need.

Your Excellency, I am also grateful that, in particular, vessels were provided for the shipment of fertilizers by Dmitry Mazepin's company to Zimbabwe. This happened just at the right time for farming under the tropical climate regime in our country.

We note that you support small developing countries like Zimbabwe. We also support you in your business to strengthen your relationships. We in Zimbabwe consider you as a dear, reliable friend of the people of Zimbabwe, who have been suffering from sanctions for the past 25 years, although there are no prospects for lifting these sanctions yet.

But despite all this, dear brother, our economy is growing. Moreover, it is the fastest growing economy in our region, despite the sanctions imposed by the West.

For this reason, as your commitment to supporting small countries like Zimbabwe has been demonstrated, I can say that we have been able to achieve food security thanks again to your support in purchasing fertilizers.

Allow me, on behalf of my country, my people, and myself, to express my deep gratitude for your continued support for our country, which is under sanctions. I want to say that we have even learned to benefit from these sanctions, because we strengthen ourselves and manage to survive.

Thank you very much.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

We are proud of you, but we are also proud to some extent of ourselves, because we help you succeed in your hour of need. We will now proceed to a formal discussion.

In general, all states develop on the basis of three main factors: the factor of military power, the factor of ideas, spirit, will, and, finally, the factor of economy.

For many years, we believed – following the example of one president of a very large country-that everything is decided by the economy. Remember, everyone kept saying, "It's the economy, stupid." The person who said this was a fool, because really all these three factors play a role.

And now, of course, at the moment of a geostrategic turning point, military strength and the power of the spirit, the power of ideas, are coming to the fore. Nevertheless, the economy is important: without the economy, there will be no power, and without the economy, without bread, the spirit of the people will be undermined. We have already experienced this for ourselves, in particular in the 80s. So let's start with economic and political issues. [Karaganov just made an ass of himself because without a healthy economy national advancement isn’t possible. Clinton was correct on that point despite my loathing of his immorality.]

Mr President, I am referring to the eighth point of your program, although you have not said where we are going, but all the points are remarkable. In the eighth point of the program, you talked about territorial development, but you did not mention one area that I think is strategically important. [Yes, you were indeed asleep.]

We have completed our Western journey; it was very useful and brought us a lot. It is quite clear that in the current world circumstances and in the conditions of a long hostility with the West-–God forbid that it will turn into a completely violent form--but most importantly, because we have turned to another world that is rising, we need to shift the centers of our spiritual, economic and partly political development to Siberia and the Caucasus. The Far East.

You once proclaimed an "eastern turn", but this "eastern turn" came only at the expense of the Far East, then the Northern Sea Route was added to it. In your speech at our forum in 2019, you mentioned the need to develop large research and production centers in Central Siberia. Then, of course, we had covid, then a military operation, and somehow this story was forgotten.

Maybe we should go back? After all, we really need to move the whole country there, "sibirize" Russia. You mentioned the Minusinsk basin. Maybe we will create new industrial centers there for the deepest processing of non-ferrous metals, for new energy, especially for new power engineering? And closer to Lake Baikal – centers for the development of all forest chemistry. Maybe we can still develop a new strategy for the development of the whole of Siberia – the "Sibirization" of Russia? Why don't we do this? We had, of course, a project for the development of the Siberian Federal District – I studied it, as far as I know, you didn't like it either. But in my opinion, the development of Siberia should definitely start as soon as possible, for the whole of Siberia.

Vladimir Putin: I agree with you that we need to develop the Eastern regions: Western Siberia, Eastern Siberia, and the Far East.

We started with what was not just the most popular, but the hottest, or something, in terms of preserving territories and their development – we started with the Far East. Because there was a lot of depopulation going on, and we couldn't afford to continue this process. I hope that it is noticeable what has been done over the past decade, over the past ten years, regarding the development of the Far East. I won't list everything right now, but we have a fairly large program.

The same applies to Siberia as a whole, I repeat, both Western and Eastern. Western Siberia has traditionally developed since the Soviet era, taking into account the mineral resources that the whole country still uses. But gradually, these centers of economic development are shifting to the east and north. If earlier it was said, and it is known who said, that Russia will grow in Siberia, now we can say that Russia will grow in the Arctic, because we have the main mineral resources there – so it turns out. They are still complex and expensive to develop, but they are still very promising.

But in fact, we do. Just now I was just talking about the development of the Eastern Railway polygon. But we started this work a long time ago. In general, when did Russia start this work, and when was the Trans-Siberian Railway laid? Even before the Russo-Japanese War. And then BAM – in Soviet times. And we have already set goals for the development of this area in recent history.

We made some mistakes in our work--we thought that there would not be such a load, the Government thought so, so we slightly shifted the development of the Eastern Landfill to the right. But nevertheless, it was there, and it continued, perhaps not in the volumes that we originally planned. Of course, we will do this.

But in modern conditions, this cannot be done in the same way as it was done in Soviet times. And you can't even do what they did under Stolypin. Stolypin simply distributed the land. Why? Because then the main means of production was land, and now the main means of production is brains. We need to develop technologies, build universities and train appropriate personnel. And that's what we do, too.

When I talked about campuses at 40 universities, when I talked about the development of science and education, when I talked about the need to use robotics and artificial intelligence, this will largely develop in Siberia. This is what we are doing and we will move our respective large companies there. Also, unfortunately, it is impossible to do this in a completely purely administrative way.

I mentioned a company that already operates in Siberia – RusHydro. It is one of the largest, if not the largest, hydropower companies in the world. Moreover, when I appointed the head of the company, I told him: "Provided that you move to Siberia, that the headquarters will move to Krasnoyarsk. Do you agree? "He says: " Do you agree" – "Will your family come with you?" – "Will they go".

You know, it's not easy to build a building, you need to recruit specialists. He was ready to leave right away. But recruiting specialists is not an easy story. On the spot, you need to dial. Someone wants to move, someone does not want to, someone is impossible to lose. This is a process, and this process should be organic. But this is certainly the goal – I fully agree with you here. Gradually, we need to move there. I mean, the centers of global development are there, and, of course, we need to be closer to these centers.

Once Peter I cut a window to Europe – why? Yes, because the main development was there-this is clear, the development centers were there. There is no doubt that the centers of global development are now shifting to Asia. And, of course, we need to be closer to these development centers. You're right.

Sergey Karaganov: I have a quick question that I have been preparing for a long time. Pyotr Alekseyevich made history by cutting a window to Europe to strengthen Russia. Then it was the most promising market. Why don't we make a third capital and finally stand on three legs? There, near one of the major cities, young people who are really energetic will be drawn there, and the elite will be renewed. Several ministries can be transferred there by your order. You just said that [transferring] an administrative resource, of course, is not allowed – but it is possible. Many companies, if they are ordered by their high salaries, will come there. If you decide to.

Do you want to repeat the feat of Peter Alekseevich? He did it well.

Vladimir Putin: Pyotr Alekseyevich is a historical figure. He was the tsar of all Russia, and then the emperor. These were different conditions, this was a different state of society, these were different goal-setting goals.

In the modern world, it is necessary to apply such tools that will work effectively today. And no matter how close we are in our mentality to making quick administrative decisions, we still need to think about what will happen from what we will offer to the public in an explicit, ordered manner.

In my opinion, today we should first of all be interested in moving forward. And if we create conditions for development, then the centers of economic activity will automatically shift there.

For example, we talked about the Far East. Many years ago, I came to a shipyard near Vladivostok. It was in a state of half-life. I said: you know, here we will not just restore, but also create new competencies, we will build new ships. I had to look at the people around me: workers, engineers - they were very skeptical about this. I will tell you that it took a lot of effort to create the cluster that is currently being created there.

Because it wasn't just the money that was constantly being stolen–-I'm sorry to say that I have to admit it. We approached the shell twice or thrice. In the end, the current head of Rosneft, Igor Ivanovich Sechin, took it upon himself and created a large-capacity shipbuilding there – a huge enterprise. But it took a lot of effort, and it's not easy to do all this.

What's the point? To the fact that the footage appeared there. Because of high salaries, people started moving there. The level of wages has increased, technological culture has increased, and cooperation with the countries of the region in this area of activity has emerged.

VTB and Mr. Kostin, who sits across from me, are currently managing the shipbuilding industry here. I am very pleased that he has taken to it as if he had never been a financier, as if he was always engaged in shipbuilding. But what am I talking about? To the fact that we are currently thinking about where to build another enterprise. Also, apparently, somewhere on the ocean or close to it.

This is the natural way–-in this case, I'm sorry, I'm afraid of injuring your imperial consciousness—to do it in a market-based way. And in this case, we will succeed. Of course, this is a difficult job, but it will be thorough.

When I spoke about Stolypin—yes, it was all in absentia, we remember everything connected with it there, and "Stolypin ties" and so on—but then it was the main means of production, and it was economically expedient to do as Stolypin suggested: distribute the main means of production people, create conditions for them, and then it worked. Now just by order… I think that what I have proposed will be more thorough, and we will be successful on this path.

But in general, you are absolutely right. Of course, we need to move in this direction.

Sergey Karaganov: Mr President, I am no more an imperialist than you are, I think, but I am tougher on this issue. But I do know one thing, we have studied this issue, that those countries that moved their capitals, or rather, moved and created new capitals, inevitably, invariably received a giant economic breakthrough in these countries. It's always true, we know that. So we should keep this in mind, and I don't think we should forget about the third capital after all, there is such a possibility.

Vladimir Putin: Okay, thank you very much.

Sergey Karaganov: Let us now turn to a broader question. We see that the old world economic system is now collapsing. It collapses for many reasons. One of the main reasons is that first the Soviet Union, and then Russia, knocked out its foundation, out of the 500-year domination of the West in the world economy, politics and culture, its military superiority. Then we started knocking it out, the system went off, stood still for a bit, then we failed, and now we have rebelled and started knocking out this superiority again, the system has collapsed. It will rain down endlessly and for quite a long time. This is good, but it is also bad, because there are practically no new regulatory mechanisms emerging. There is no master plan for what to do.

Our Chinese friends are drawing something with very broad strokes, and someone else is doing something. And you didn't think that Russia might take the initiative to create a master plan for a new global economic system, collecting brains from new countries, and maybe after a while good brains from old countries will come to it. Create, for example, in St. Petersburg, next to the Forum, on the site of the Forum, a think tank that will create a new global economic and financial system, its contours.

Bretton Woods is dead, or almost dead. Maybe we can create a "Petersburg system"? They won't be afraid of us, by the way, like the Chinese. If the Chinese do this, everyone will be afraid of them, and the Hindus will not come. Both Chinese and Hindus will approach us. We see that our African friends will also be happy to participate. I think that Latin American companies will work together with us, and we will be able to use their experience, including for our internal construction. Maybe we can take on this kind of work? This is not an imperialist idea. (Laughter.) [No, it’s Russian Chauvinism.]

Vladimir Putin: They want to create such a system. (Laughter.)

Look, the Bretton Woods system died long ago, in 1976. It was replaced by the Jamaican system.

The Bretton Woods system was based on the gold equivalent. In 1976, while decisions were still being made, the United States decided to move away from the gold equivalent, and the Jamaican system was created, which unfastened the dollar from gold. What is the basis of this Jamaican system that is still in place? Confidence in the American economy.

Look at what is happening today in reality: there is no other guarantee, as they say, other than trust in the American economy, in today's global financial system.

Of course, the United States exploits its monopoly position in the global financial market, and it makes a lot of money from this exploitation. According to data that is publicly available, the United States conditionally owes the world economy 54.3 trillion dollars.

What does this figure consist of? $ 12.6 trillion is what individuals keep in their bank accounts and just in their pockets, under the mattress, as we say, outside the borders of the United States. Plus, another $ 10 trillion was taken by American companies. And this is $ 22.6 trillion, which is not secured by anything, nothing but trust in the American economy. The remainder of 54.3 is what citizens of other countries have invested in American companies, and their investments in American companies are secured by the reliability of these companies and their value. Their reliability also depends on the American economic system in the final analysis.

What is happening in this regard in the world? The size of the American economy is shrinking, and their fundamentals crackle from time to time, meaning not only their debt, which is off the scale, but also the fact that they do not always cope with their set inflation goals. They have set inflation targets of 2 percent, and they fly out, as was most recently the case, during the pandemic, for 7.8 percent, which undermines confidence in the American economy.

How is it provided, if it is also being reduced? Nothing. And that's the problem. This is an absolute problem for all holders of the dollar mass.

The fact that it is shrinking, its share in the structure of the world economy is shrinking, is an absolutely natural movement towards creating multipolarity in the world economy and in world finance.

We can, of course, invent all sorts of systems, but the value of a particular currency depends on the value of the economy that it regulates.

So what are we doing now? We are working together with our BRICS partners, and Russia's role here can certainly be noticeable. We have created a New bank, and we are creating our own currency instruments. The whole world, well, not the whole world, but a significant part of the participants in international economic activity, activity goes to settlements in national currencies. As I have already mentioned, 90 percent of our trade turnover with China is regulated in yuan and rubles. In the former Soviet Union, the share of the ruble is already approaching 70 percent, which means that our role here is significant. But we need to do it together, so it will be more thorough.

And what are the American financial authorities doing today? Yesterday, some of our colleagues and I discussed our session until late, possible topics, and came to the conclusion that the American authorities, like the Luddites in England, were breaking the equipment they were working on. Today's American authorities are breaking their " tools of greatness." The dollar is one of the few instruments of today's greatness in the United States. With their own hands, they are pushing participants in global economic activity away from the dollar. This will continue to happen due to the reduction in the volume of the American economy, but by their actions they are accelerating this process.

Naturally, new tools appear. Financial instruments of central banks, for example, which we are talking about in the framework of BRICS.

There are other considerations. Just now, our colleague from Zimbabwe was talking about attracting investment. Yes, that's right, it can be done, and not only in relation to Zimbabwe; it can be done in relation to other African countries; it can be done in relation to the countries of South Asia and Asia in general, in relation to fast-developing countries. But we need such tools that would guarantee these investments and their return. What can it be based on, if not on gold? On the quality of the proposed investment projects. If we ensure quality–-the quality and stability of political regimes—and we will have to do this together, then we can develop a settlement system that will be virtually devoid of volatility, will not be volatile, and will not be subject to inflation. This can all be done. We discussed this with my friend and colleague President Xi Jinping during my trip, and we will talk about it with other BRICS leaders. This is a very important area of collaboration.

S. Karaganov: It's a joy. But think about it, we're a little late. We are already talking, for example, about a basket of currencies for eight or nine years, relatively speaking, Euro-Asian or Brics. But there's still no traffic. Because everywhere there is, as you know, competition inside.

Vladimir Putin: Well, there is. (Laughter.)

Sergey Karaganov: Well, it's still going slowly.

Vladimir Putin: Payments are being made in national currencies.

Sergey Karaganov: I'm talking about the creation of the SDR. Well, never mind.

I think that if we do not take any leadership, but at least we can organize serious work, we will help all of us, first of all, of course, our small countries. I am almost certain that Mr. Arce and Mr. Mnangagwa will agree that if Russia starts offering concrete solutions, they will join in this work.

Vladimir Putin: You're right, we need to speed up.

Sergey Karaganov: We will all benefit from their advice.

Vladimir Putin: You are right here; we need to speed up. I agree.

Sergey Karaganov: All right. Then I have another economic question.

Now we have a rapid growth of military spending and the military economy. This is gratifying, because we are going back to ourselves. Russia, in the words of a prominent St. Petersburg historian, grew and developed as a military organization of the Russian people. When we forgot about it, we fell apart.

Now we are getting stronger, especially as the circumstances require it, but there is a problem that needs to be thought out in advance. Right now, eight percent of our GNP goes to defense. This is many times less than – as you said, 13 percent-in the Soviet Union. In the Soviet Union, we don't know how much we spent, because we didn't have a consolidated figure on military spending. But in addition to this, we spent a lot of money on supporting social countries, a lot of money on supporting countries with social orientation. So, of course, there was a lot of money spent on quality, that is, not on quality, but the country's foreign policy and military budget was much higher.

Nevertheless, the comparison with the Soviet Union is unsettling. Sooner or later we must win this war, the sooner the better, in my opinion, a maximum of two years with the most decisive measures, we will talk about this later. And we are already preparing conversion plans specifically with businesses, with people who are responsible, and with business plans. I remember the monstrous experience of the early 90's, when we got into this situation, when we squandered high-tech industries, threw millions of gold workers and millions of brains out on the street or nowhere at all.

We are already preparing partial conversion plans so that they will be ready as soon as we start reducing military production?

Vladimir Putin: In the 1990s, we not only squandered this potential, we destroyed it.

Sergey Karaganov: Of course.

Vladimir Putin: And I know this very well and remember it, because I worked here in St. Petersburg. Here, 70 percent of the city's economy was represented by defense industries, and almost everything was destroyed. But, of course, since the beginning of the 2000s, we had to work on recreating it, and we managed to do a lot on a modern technological basis. But we always assumed that we would need to think about the conversion rate. It's not just about conversion, you need to think about how these industries develop in a modern way.

What do I mean by that? All over the world, those companies that produce special equipment and weapons also produce civilian products at the same time. This combination of the two directions gives a very good synergistic effect in attracting not only investment, but also in attracting high technologies. In general, we do it well.

We have an appropriate plan. It is constantly valid and executed. If, for example, in the year before last, the level of production of civilian products by enterprises of the military-industrial complex was about 25.1 percent, in my opinion, then last year it was already almost 30 percent, 29 with a tail. So this process is constantly going on.

Of course, we should definitely think about making sure that our military spending meets the needs of today, the level of development of our economy, because we cannot parasitize anyone, as they do, say, in the United States.

They have a current account trade deficit of a trillion dollars a year. What is this? I think everyone here will understand what I'm talking about. This is neocolonialism in its modern edition. Using the dollar's monopoly position, the United States consumes a trillion dollars more a year than it produces. They siphon off these resources from other countries.

We were just thinking about the pandemic period. After all, what was done? I don't remember now how much they printed in the United States, I think about five and a little trillions of dollars. By the way, in Europe, about 3.4 trillion euros were printed. What did you do next? We distributed these pieces of paper inside the country, and then started buying food products on the world food market. Like a vacuum cleaner, they swept everything to themselves, and for the first time in many years they became not exporters, but net buyers, importers of food products. And immediately food inflation around the world jumped.

But we can't behave like this, we don't have such a monopoly on the world currency as the US dollar does. And we don't behave, and have never behaved, like colonialists or neo-colonialists. In this case, we must, of course, rely on the capabilities of the economy, evaluate it realistically, and we are doing so. And in order to balance the current situation in industry and in the real sector of the economy, and in the future, of course, we are thinking about diversification. That's what happens.

Sergey Karaganov: I will ask you one more question on economics, because I know that a significant part of the audience is very concerned about this issue, to a lesser extent for me, but nevertheless I feel these vibes.

Nationalization is now partially underway. They say that it is also used to correct those monstrous mistakes or anything else that were made during privatization. Those reforms were really stupid: we created capitalism without the protection of private property. This is the cause of the deepest corruption, since property could be protected either by going to the state, and this is corruption, or to bandits,or even by exporting it abroad.

Now there is a reverse correction–-deprivation—but where are its limits? Maybe we can still define them? Because if we say that we correct the mistakes that were made in the 90s, then there were all the mistakes, because we did everything illegally and in each case it was done illegally and with violations.

I was a participant in economic processes in those years, I was forced to deal with them, because science did not give anything–-I had to maintain institutions. So, I know what was going on there at that moment. Therefore, it is now possible, in principle, to deprive everyone.

But it will also undermine the foundation of our success. We have seen how now private capital, including in our difficult military conditions, is flexibly filling new niches, doing it quickly, creating a much more flexible economy for us than it would have been if it had been purely state-owned.

Maybe we can stop somewhere? Let's declare, for example, that we take unused mineral resources to the state, prohibit the export of capital, and declare property sacred-after a certain limit. And the KPIs of governors and all managers, sorry for the Anglicism, will be based on the level of protection of private property.

Vladimir Putin: As for the subsurface resources, they are already state property. So it is, and so it all exists: the subsoil is transferred for use, at the disposal of our companies, and so on, but this is the property of the state. This is the first one.

Second. You mentioned the wrong, erroneous or criminal privatization of the 90s. You know, no matter how painful this may be for so many people in the country, but still I would not even use these epithets. Why? Because I don't think it was purposefully done for any criminal purposes. Yes, this was largely erroneous–-it was based on the opinion of world-renowned economists, including those of Russian origin, who said that everything should be privatized as quickly as possible, and it does not matter for what–-at least for one dollar. The main thing is that it should be in the hands of effective owners, which the state cannot be.

Life has shown that in our country and in the conditions in which we have lived and are living now, this is still, to put it mildly, an inaccurate approach for obtaining maximum results and maximum efficiency. It turned out that the state can still be an effective owner, and in many cases it demonstrates this, especially in such industries that involve large investments, with large investments.

At that time, no one had any investments. And then there were all sorts of fraudulent schemes, when in the course of this false privatization, and in fact embezzlement of state property, they took money from state-owned banks, paid three times cheaper for some asset, and then from the operation of this asset they returned or even did not return the loans taken from state-owned banks. This is embezzlement.

So, of course, when it comes to economically incorrect, but still legal decisions related to privatization, I would not touch it at all. The Prosecutor's Office deals only with issues related to the criminal nature of state property privatization.

But you are right, of course, that there should be some sensible restrictive lines here, and we are talking and discussing this with business representatives. In general, I am in favor of making an appropriate decision not even at the level of a presidential decree or government decree, but at the level of law. My business colleagues and I are currently thinking about this together, and I think we will find a solution.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you.

Let's move on to more political issues. You keep talking about your desire to negotiate an end to the conflict with the West in Ukraine. This, of course, is the desire to conduct negotiations in a commendable and positive way.

But with whom to negotiate? Our Western partners have cheated on us many times and are violating all the agreements we reach with them. The Kiev regime is morally illegitimate, politically illegitimate, and even legally illegitimate from the point of view of the already failed state that exists there.

And how can we even conduct any negotiations with them without first defeating them, achieving complete surrender and putting, relatively speaking, a nuclear pistol to our Western opponents so that they do not twitch any more? Because, in principle, after all, any agreements will not be implemented now, until there is a defeat. Illegitimate and unreliable partners.

What should I do about it?

Vladimir Putin: Well, yes, but as Iosif Vissarionovich said, "I don't have any other writers"– he spoke about the Union of Writers of the USSR at the time when Beria came to inform on them once again. He said, "I don't have any other writers." Well, such partners–-what should we do now, fight with everyone, or what?

We must, of course, seek such agreements and conditions that would correspond to our interests and would be as reliable as possible. You are right that it is very difficult to negotiate with such a public, they deceive at every step. They say one thing and do another. It is sad, but all armed conflicts end in some kind of peace agreements. However, as one of the former leaders of a fairly significant European country told me, all these agreements can be based either on the basis of military defeat or on the basis of victory. We, of course, strive and will achieve victory.

It is a question of the legitimacy of those with whom we negotiate. Yes, there are problems there, of course. Because a preliminary, even cursory analysis of the legislation of Ukraine shows that the current executive authorities have lost their legitimacy.

There is Article 103 of the Constitution [of Ukraine], which says that the President is elected only for five years, and there is Article 83 of the Constitution of Ukraine, which states that the powers of the Verkhovna Rada can be extended under martial law. Nothing is said about the extension of the president's powers.

There is a law on the essence of martial law, and it says that presidential elections are not held under martial law, but it does not say that they are prolonged–-I am still a graduate of St. Petersburg University, the Faculty of Law—and this is very important, this is an essential thing: if it is not said, then this is not the case. not yet.

There are relevant articles in the Criminal Code that speak of usurpation of power. It seems that we are dealing with a usurpation of power. But negotiations can still be conducted, because, in my opinion, in accordance with Articles 109, 110, 111 of the Constitution, the powers are transferred to the Speaker of the Rada. So if you want to negotiate, you can find someone to negotiate with.

We are ready for these negotiations, but only, I repeat, on the terms that we agreed on when we started these negotiations in Minsk and then in Istanbul, and not on any ideas. Even if we take the agreements reached in Istanbul as a basis, we must still proceed from the current realities. This is in general terms.

Sergey Karaganov: Mr President, of course, the maxim that all wars end in negotiations is a false maxim, and of course it is being imposed on us. Most wars end with the defeat and surrender of the enemy. This is the only way to end this war.

I turn to the next question, which is that the defeat and capitulation of the enemy in the current circumstances, when America benefits from this war, and they will continue it, driving the Ukrainians to slaughter and finishing them off, and now they will also drive the Europeans to slaughter—this war should be stopped without rapid movement up the ladder of nuclear escalation. It won't be possible in the near future. This is the first one.

Second. Under the world system, the plates parted. There will be a lot of conflicts that will arise objectively. There used to be a nuclear fuse, but now it's seriously weakened--the fear of nuclear weapons. Do we understand that we have a huge responsibility not only to win this war–-and for this we need to go much harder on the escalation ladder and be ready to use it—but also to return this nuclear safety net to the international system in order to prevent the movement towards a huge wave of conflicts? After all, who else will do it? Who else will do it?

You have a huge responsibility. And if we crawl up this ladder so slowly, even though there is movement, of course, then I am afraid that we are shirking this responsibility, as it were. Although I understand the gravity of moral choice.

Vladimir Putin: As for the nuclear escalation, we have never started this rhetoric. I don't remember the name of this lady, the former Prime Minister of Great Britain, who, when asked when she became Prime Minister, said that she was ready to push the nuclear button.

We never said that. That's how it all started. We just said that we should take it more seriously–-and immediately started saying that we were rattling nuclear weapons. We don't rattle. First.

Second : what is the use, non-use, in which case to apply. We have a nuclear doctrine, and everything is written there. I just talked to the heads of news agencies yesterday and told them about it. We have everything written there: the use is possible in an exceptional case–-in case of a threat to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the country, in exceptional cases.

I do not think that such a case has occurred-–there is no such need. But this doctrine is a living instrument, and we are closely watching what is happening in the world, around us, and do not rule out making some changes to this doctrine.

Now this is also connected with the testing of nuclear weapons. We once not only signed it, but also ratified it, the Americans signed it, but did not ratify it, so in today's conditions we have withdrawn our ratification. But if necessary, we will conduct tests. So far, there is no such need either, because our information capabilities, computer capabilities, allow us to produce everything in its current form.

Now, as for speed, as for results. You said that I have a great responsibility. Yes, indeed. Is it possible to increase the speed of solving the tasks we are facing? It is possible, but it is directly proportional to the losses. And while I understand my responsibility, I still proceed from what the General Staff and the Ministry of Defense suggest. Speed is important, but even more important is taking care of the lives and health of our guys who are fighting at the front.

Combat work is underway. Only since the beginning of this year, 47 settlements, in my opinion, have been liberated–-880 square kilometers. We are gradually squeezing the enemy out of the territory of Donbass and other adjacent territories. The General Staff and the Defense Ministry have plans to implement and achieve all our goals, and we are working on this plan. I am sure that all these plans will be implemented.

Sergey Karaganov: Nevertheless, we are well aware that speeding up the ladder of nuclear escalation can save a large number of lives, because it can bring our opponents to reason, who took advantage of the fact that we also had such a light doctrine.

I have no doubt that it will be changed, and I hope that it will be changed soon, and you will have the formal right to respond, if you so decide, with a nuclear strike to any strikes on our territory. This should absolutely be the sovereign right of our leader. I hope that such a statement will appear in our doctrine, and it will cool down our opponents a little, and also save our soldiers sooner or later.

Of course, it is probably too early to go for a nuclear escalation, but we need to move towards this in order to cool down our opponents. They went wild, especially the Europeans. It's the third time they've gone to war in almost a hundred years. The Americans are much more careful, they fed the Ukrainians, they push them, and they are much more careful. But the Europeans are going to war.

I'm a hunter, I know how animals behave. If you are attacked by a pack of wild dogs or hyenas and you have a stick, then you can beat them, drive them away, and there is a chance that you will drive them away. But most likely they will tear your trousers, and then again, if you are tired, they will gnaw you. If you have the opportunity to nail a couple, then they will run away--I guarantee.

President Mnangagwa knows the habits of hyenas. Do you agree with me, Mr. President, that this is how hyenas are dispersed?

:(as translated)E. Mnangagwa Yes, you know, there are a lot of hyenas in Zimbabwe. But they are all kept in national parks so that they don't bother us. We don't have any problems with them, and they reproduce quickly. If someone wants a hyena, we can give it to you.

Vladimir Putin: We have enough of our own.

S. Karaganov: In Europe.

Again, I repeat this question–-I bring it to the end. If we do not move more decisively up the escalating ladder, will we not anger the gifts of the Almighty? After all, the Most High once showed us the way, when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with a rain of fire for debauchery and debauchery. And after that, for a very long time, humanity remembered this and behaved carefully, but now it has forgotten about Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, maybe we should remember this rain and try to bring humanity back to reason, or that part of humanity that has lost faith in God and lost its mind?

Vladimir Putin: Without me, maybe not? You'll set the heat there! They were already scared.

Although, of course, you can think: You are now talking about Europeans-–any logic is possible. If, God forbid, it comes to any strikes, then everyone should understand that Russia has an early warning system–-a missile attack warning system. The US has one. There is no such system developed anywhere else in the world. We have. In Europe, there is no developed system, they are more or less defenseless in this sense. This is the first one.

The second is the power of strikes. Our tactical nuclear weapons are four times more powerful than the bombs used by the Americans against Hiroshima and Nagasaki, three or four times. We have many times more of them-and on the European continent, and even if the Americans bring their own from the United States, we still have many times more.

If it comes [to this], God forbid, which I would very much like, then–-you said "we will reduce the victims"—they can increase indefinitely. This is the first one.

And the second. Of course, these same Europeans will have to think: if those with whom we will exchange such strikes do not exist, will the Americans get involved in this exchange of strikes already at the level of strategic weapons or not? I doubt it very much, and the Europeans should also think about it, of course.

But I still believe that it will never come to that, and we don't need to, because our Armed Forces are not just gaining experience and improving their efficiency, but our military–industrial complex is demonstrating its effective work. I have already said it many times, and I can repeat it: we have increased the production of ammunition by more than 20 times, we are several times higher than the enemy's capabilities in terms of aviation equipment, we are significantly higher in terms of armored vehicles, and so on and so forth. We don't even need to think about it.

Please, and I would also ask everyone not to mention such things in vain once again.

Sergey Karaganov: You behave so responsibly and speak so responsibly, but we are dealing with absolutely irresponsible and crazy partners.

Vladimir Putin: Scary man.

Sergey Karaganov: No, you know… You looked at these partners from the outside, as most of us do, but I grew up in that system, and it happened in my life. I have known them from a young age, and I assure you that I have reason to say what I say.

Although I understand perfectly and support your hesitation, because this is a terrible choice, and the choice should be made only as a last resort. But if they know that you are not ready to make this choice, they will endlessly try to fight and bleed us.

And at the same time, they are fighting not only against us–-they are also fighting against our friends in the world majority, because we are the military-strategic root, the core of this world majority. If they turn us around, they'll start suppressing them again. I don't know if the presidents agree with this.

Vladimir Putin: Let me make one remark.

The decisions of both myself and my colleagues with whom I work in this area are not related to any fluctuations-there are no fluctuations and there can be no fluctuations. All our decisions should be based on analysis–-a real, objective analysis of the current situation. That's what we do.

Sergey Karaganov: The day before yesterday, you spoke to the heads of agencies and said something extremely interesting about the fact that we are ready and can supply our long-range weapons to countries that are enemies of our enemies. This made me very happy, because it's about time. What, will we supply both high-precision and hypersound? Naturally, with your own technical specialists? This can really seriously improve the situation in the world. For example, aircraft carriers, which are generally a meaningless tool now, in the current circumstances, will leave the world stage, and people will stop spending huge amounts of money on them.

So what will we deliver? When and how? Of course, at the same time, I understand that we should not do this ourselves in any case, or at least we should say that we are not doing it.

Vladimir Putin: As for aircraft carriers. You said they were meaningless. They are meaningless only in some global conflict in a strategic sense. And from the point of view of solving geopolitical problems, as a tool of geopolitics, in order to move them to those territories against which the same Americans, French or British want to fight and force something, they make sense. True, given the presence of modern hypersonic weapons in Russia and China, they lose their meaning to a certain extent, of course. You're telling us not to spend money on it. Let them spend it. Why did you say that out loud? Let them spend it.

Sergey Karaganov: I am addressing our Chinese and Indian friends at this moment. They spend extra money.

Vladimir Putin: And I said that maybe there are geopolitical considerations. It's like a non-strategic weapon. Just as a strategic weapon, it has lost its meaning, but in general it can be. And in other countries, let them spend. Why not?

Now about the fact that we supply weapons. We don't deliver yet. But we reserve the right to do this to those states or even some legal structures that are experiencing some pressure on themselves, including of a military nature, from those countries that supply weapons to Ukraine and call for their use against us, against our Russian territory. If they supply these weapons to the war zone and call for them to be used on our territory, then why don't we have the right to do the same and respond to them in a mirror way?

I am also not ready to say that we will do it tomorrow. Because in any case, any such delivery is associated with a number of circumstances that somehow affect certain regions of the world, and we should, of course, think about it.

Sergey Karaganov: Let us perhaps complete this military part, which is quite unpleasant. Now, in order to attack, if we move very quickly up the escalation ladder in the near future, which I insist on, because this is absolutely not necessary, I think we can come to our senses on the way, then we may need to go for mobilization, at least partially. Do you think that we can defeat the enemy without mobilization, or will we still need to mobilize?

Vladimir Putin: If we follow your recommendations, if we want to do this as quickly as possible, then the current contingent is not enough for us. But we are following, as I said, a different tactic: we are squeezing the enemy out of the territories that should be put under our control. In this sense, there is no need for us to mobilize. We don't plan to do this.

We have mobilized 300,000 people. But last year, without any mobilization, our men, our patriotic people, voluntarily came to the military enlistment office and signed contracts with the Armed Forces. They were over 300 thousand people. (Applause.) Since the beginning of this year, more than 160 thousand people have come to military enlistment offices and signed contracts. Every day we have about a thousand plus people come to the military enlistment offices, voluntarily.

You know, when we see what the Russian character is, what the character of a Russian citizen is, we understand it and rely on it, we don't need any atomic weapons for the final victory. (Applause.)

I can only add that we are seeing this forced mobilization in Ukraine. Of course, I have no doubt that the age of mobilization will decrease. We reliably know from Ukrainian sources that the Americans have set a condition for continuing support by reducing the level of mobilization by age-25-23, 20, 18, maybe 18 at once. This is no longer our business, let them then replace the current leadership of Ukraine. I've already talked about this.

But what is important for us? This is that somewhere they are gaining 30, 50, in the month before last, 70 thousand, in my opinion, scored. There will be a reduction. What does this mean? This means that what they collect and will continue to collect will only be used to make up for their losses. There will be a small increase, as they say. You can count them in different ways, but I won't even mention the numbers right now, although we can understand them.

And in this situation, when we have people voluntarily come and go to the front to defend their homeland, there is no question of mobilization.

Sergey Karaganov: Mr President, of course I understand your arguments, but I know the history of our country very well. I remember 1916, when we won, but the people were tired. Therefore, we will still need to start rushing at some point. We snatched defeat out of the hands of victory in 1917.

Now, thank God, because we have started, perhaps even belatedly, this operation, an explosive uplift in the spirit of the people, it is quite obvious that the economy has finally started to work, because only in such conditions can we work. The traitorous elements and the fifth column of compradors have withdrawn or fled, and our Western opponents are liquidating our own. This is all great. After all, this should not last long, so I think that do not write off my arguments and those of my colleagues that we regularly send you.

Vladimir Putin: We don't write anything off, we take everything into account. Thank you for these recommendations.

Sergey Karaganov: And now I will turn to the issue (we will definitely return to the global economy later) that you have already raised.

We, like you and me, have "had enough" of a single communist ideology, so, of course, we don't want a communist ideology. But a state, a great state, cannot exist without a national ideology, without a great idea. States that lost their national idea, their national ideology, inevitably collapsed. The world is littered with graves or shadows of such states. By the way, we also fell down twice: once when we lost faith in the tsar and the Fatherland, and the second time when we lost faith in communism. And we are now resisting the introduction of a rigid state ideology. It is clear that such an ideology is very easy to formulate, and you have already partially formulated it yourself in your speeches. It is clear that such an ideology may not be mandatory, but it may be mandatory for at least those people who want to be leaders of the country, who want to be the country's elite. It's a code of honor.

This code of honor is easy to formulate, we know it. By the way, we are working on it, it is very close to the ideal of the Confucian worthy husband. We discussed this with religious leaders, our Orthodox and Muslim communities. They all agree on one thing – this code can be formulated.

Why don't we formulate a code for everyone? These people want to live an ordinary life–-let them live, and that's a good thing. But if you want to lead, if you want to succeed in society, you must adhere to absolutely clear rules, and these rules must be formulated. I will not formulate them now, so as not to occupy the audience, because it is quite easy to do. But why are we still afraid? There is no need to change the article of the Constitution. Why are we afraid to introduce a single state ideology that is mandatory for all those who want and are ready to serve the state and society?

Vladimir Putin: We are not afraid of anything.

Sergey Karaganov: No, we are afraid.

Vladimir Putin: There is a Constitution that you mentioned, and it says that we should not have a dominant ideology.

We had a dominant ideology, and you mentioned the period of the Soviet Union. But the existence of a dominant ideology did not prevent the Soviet Union from collapsing. It didn't work out.

Of course, there should be a unifying idea for a multinational country. You said that we first lost faith in the tsar and the Fatherland, then in communism. You know, we have lost faith in the tsar, but not in the Fatherland. First.

Second. They simply believed in the Fatherland in different ways and evaluated differently what was good and what was bad for the Fatherland. This is a different question, of course, we need ideas here. Faith in communism was lost, but not by everyone, otherwise we would not have had a legal party – the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and it has many supporters. This is a fact, and it should be treated, in my opinion, also with respect.

But you are right that unifying ideas are needed. And of course, such a unifying idea – and today's events show this – can be in the best, direct, and not leavened sense of the word, patriotism. And those people who voluntarily come and go to the front, not sparing their lives and health, the best proof of this is patriotism. But it is, of course, necessary to correctly, thoroughly, beautifully, intelligibly arrange and submit everything. Please help us. We will be very grateful to you.

Sergey Karaganov: With pleasure. This really needs to be done. I assure you that I remember how the communist ideology was dying, and I didn't miss it. But because of the death of the communist ideology, that country also died, because we had a vacuum. Therefore, we need to fill this vacuum with fairly specific things. If you order it, we'll do it. But only then you should offer this to society, the elite, and make it more or less mandatory. Then it will work. By the way, this is how the communist ideology worked in our country, which was mandatory for everyone and which for many years had a lot of beautiful things in it, moved our country forward, and allowed us to win a terrible war. Therefore, an ideology is needed.

Vladimir Putin: You know, I suggest that we not worsen our discussion. I will be happy to discuss with you, but not only the communist ideology, although it was of great importance in the Victory in the Great Patriotic War. If this was all that united a multinational people, then…

But then the question is, why did they fly over Moscow with icons, why did they then legalize the church, actually restore the patriarchate? As our guys say today: there are no unbelievers in the trenches. It was the same then.

Of course, communist ideology played a role. For the Motherland, for Stalin, people stood up and went forward. But the Motherland still came first. Let's not forget that.

Sergey Karaganov: Of course, a lot of countries collapsed when they lost their ideology. That's for sure.

Another peaceful, good question. We have a big discussion about migration in our country, as you know. There are also chauvinistic sentiments that are deadly for a country that is inherently multinational.

At the same time, migration is handled by the police department. Good or bad is the next question. But its job is to limit migration. I believe that the negative aspects of migration should be more strictly restricted.

But I think we are facing not only the task, but also the opportunity to start mass attraction of qualified migrants from abroad. Climate migration will begin, value migration will begin, crisis migration will begin, and it is already underway.

By the way, we just missed a wave of very interesting people who could come to us from Afghanistan after they fled from there, after the Americans staged what they did there.

Shouldn't we modernize our concept of migration policy? I read it a while ago. It is wonderfully unrealistic and liberal, and the police department is supposedly implementing it. Perhaps you would like to create a body in the Government that would regulate all these issues, create a modern concept of migration policy and deal with both attracting and restricting migration, including hard migration? We don't have such a policy now.

Vladimir Putin: I have nothing to say to you. You're right.

However, we need to think about the possibility of interesting people coming to us from Afghanistan. We have a lot of interesting people coming from other countries right now.

But you are right, of course, that we have not yet developed such a meaningful migration policy. We had a single body once, but then it was loaded into the Ministry of Internal Affairs for security reasons. It turns out to work effectively there or not–-a big question. We are discussing this with our colleagues. I have set a task for both the Government and the Security Council to return to this issue as soon as possible.

You can't say that the problem doesn't exist. It is there. It is also necessary to attract labor migrants, this is obvious, with almost zero, minimal unemployment, the lack of workers becomes a constraint on economic growth.

But, of course, you are right that we need not just labor migrants, but people with certain qualifications and training, with knowledge of the language, with knowledge of our traditions, and so on. This, by the way, is also understood by our colleagues, my colleagues from the countries where we have the main number of migrants coming from. We agree on how to organize this work together, how to train them in terms of knowledge of the Russian language, our traditions and culture, and our laws, so that these people who come here are comfortable here, and, most importantly, local citizens do not create any problems either in the labor market or in the labor market. in everyday life. Because where do migrants mostly congregate? Where there is an active economic life. Where's that?" Moscow, the Moscow region, St. Petersburg, and some Siberian cities where the salary level is decent. Of course, we have a lot to do in this area, I fully agree.

Sergey Karaganov: We simply do not use the excellent experience of our guests right now, and I would like to address President Arce with this question. You have told us a lot of interesting things, and by the way, we will probably distribute your speech as a textbook. I will ask my colleagues to distribute it to universities, because it is just a wonderful textbook. Thank you, because this is an alternative to what is taught in most of our universities so far. And you are a living example of the fact that there is an alternative correct and effective economic policy. But I have a slightly different question.

You are a relatively non-poor country, you need to attract investment, and you even have plans for a transcontinental canal. Do you think that this money can still be applied to the International Monetary Fund, for example, the World Bank? Or is this time gone and you need some tools? What tools do you see? We are creating a BRICS Bank, something else exists.

What would be ideal, from your point of view, for an effective economist, what should be the ideal international system that would allow for independent development? What needs to be developed in it?

L. Arce: Thank you so much for the question.

In fact, Bolivia is the only country that would like to see development in the use of our natural resources. In this sense, Bolivia is open to foreign direct investment in a model where the largest part is foreign investment. When it comes to natural resources, this is primarily true of Bolivian state-owned companies and the state.

But there are completely different industries, such as tourism, agriculture and so on, where natural resources are not so busy. Of course, there can be any foreign investor here, if these are not strategic natural resources for our country, where the state must have at least 50 percent of the participation.

So, for example, we held tenders for lithium and more than seven companies came to this tender to participate in lithium mining. There are already three companies working with us in Bolivia: two are Chinese companies, and one is a Russian company. At the end of last year, we again sent a new invitation for new companies, and this procedure will end in August of this year. We have the largest lithium reserves in the world, so, of course, there is an opportunity for many foreign companies to develop these deposits. We have certain investments in the mining industry, but it is obvious that lithium mining is the most important area for foreign investment.

In addition, there are other investment opportunities for those who agree with our economic model. It can be created from the position of the state, providing certain conditions for sustainable development and income. Of course, BRICS, the New BRICS Development Bank is a great opportunity, because we are waiting for this kind of financing, which would not be classical, like the IMF or the World Bank, because they have their own conditions and, of course, their own goals for granting loans. Regional organizations, such as the Inter-American Development Bank in Latin America or other Latin American banking associations that offer financial resources. Or, for example, there are associations of five countries in the region where you can find the best conditions for lending, and, of course, taking into account international alternative solutions, such as, for example, the BRICS Bank. This is a great opportunity to attract foreign investment, foreign investors to participate in some similar investment projects. And our Government is quite cautious, of course, in its approach to the use of our natural resources. We are open to private foreign investment, primarily in other sectors, of course.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you.

Mr. Mnangagwa, I also have a question for you, which I think is quite significant. Now our Government is preparing a program as the host country of the BRICS summit, which is already attended by three African countries. I think that there will be other countries as well. What do you want from BRICS? In what direction do you think BRICS should develop? What institutions should it create, for example, in order to help, and then, perhaps, involve countries such as Zimbabwe? Maybe the BRICS food fund or the BRICS mineral fertilizer fund, maybe the BRICS emergency relief agency? There is no such agency in the world right now, and our countries can probably combine resources. By the way, you won't need any additional resources for this. Maybe something like that? What would you like BRICS to do?

:(as translated)E. Mnangagwa Thank you very much.

Zimbabwe is now a member of the SADC [Southern African Development Community]. A meeting of this association will be held in August this year. To do this, we will build a new city. We believe that we will finish it at the end of August – in September, together with other SADC member states.

Regarding BRICS unification: we have not heard that the BRICS summit will be held in Zimbabwe, but we do know that the summit of the heads of State of the SADC and Southern African Development Community will be held there. This summit makes it possible to hold it in any of the [SADC member States].

In order to hold a summit of this level, it is necessary to create infrastructure. So we have a very difficult time right now, we practically do not sleep, we are creating a new city. That is why we will host the Southern African Development Community summit in August.

After that, we will have an accessible infrastructure for holding international conferences in Zimbabwe. Of course, we are not such cool guys as we gathered here. We don't have a long-established infrastructure, we are just growing. I like that we will be able to achieve the standards that are necessary for holding a regional conference. This means that in the future we will be able to hold a Zimbabwe – Russia summit, because we are currently creating the necessary infrastructure.

As for our region and the African or third world countries in general, we need to make sure that they create conditions for holding summits, because technology will come with them. Such a summit cannot be held if there is no communication equipment or necessary facilities or infrastructure for such summits.

I think that we in our region are still preparing for such a challenge as holding a regional or even a continental summit, but we will be ready to do so in the future. For example, there is now a Russia-Africa summit, there is a China–Africa summit, there is a Spain–Africa summit, and I think that in the future we should hold a Russia–Zimbabwe summit, when we will host the Russian Federation, or, for example, a China–Zimbabwe summit, where we will host China; yourself as a guest.

We know we can do it. Therefore, it is important to concentrate here. Yes, we need external support, which is extremely important for us as a state. We developed and used all available internal resources. We must fill in some gaps, build what we lack.

We focus on this and are proud to have created such an infrastructure and institutions. So, I look forward to the day when we will hold the Zimbabwe–Russia summit, and my brother will come to us and attend the summit in Zimbabwe and all the premises. I'm now looking at what you've built. We are ready to build new, better premises and new infrastructure. We see what our dear brother is doing.

Thank you very much. We are waiting for you to visit us.

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you very much.

I will still write to you later, perhaps asking you to write down what you expect from the BRICS summit specifically. Do you have any suggestions? That would be interesting to us. We are collecting such applications, because indeed BRICS is already gaining momentum. We need to find the right direction for its development.

I'm already being signaled that we have to finish. I had a lot of interesting questions. (Laughter.) But if so, then so.

Then the last question, Mr President, is for you. You are a Russian European, a native of St. Petersburg, a favorite city of many Russians, including me. Peter's European journey was over. You are now completing it with some delay. There is one problem: we have strong European genes, Europe has become part of our identity. How can we save them and not lose them on the way, as we do very often in Russia when we throw out a child with water?

Maybe we should make St. Petersburg a center of real European culture, hold festivals here for real Europeans, and finally declare that we are Europe? Of course, we are northern Eurasia and first of all a civilization of civilizations, but to make St. Petersburg a center of European national culture. That's one question.

And there is another question attached to this one. I think that our friends from Africa and Latin America will be happy if we start turning St. Petersburg into a center of world culture as well. It was Paris, slowly fading away, New York has become different. Maybe we can make St. Petersburg a center of world culture, "New Vasyuki"? Everything is already built here, you just need to create a few festivals and a few, sorry for the Anglicism, happenings-events that will attract a huge number of people. It will be beneficial for St. Petersburg residents, and it will be useful for everyone, both in the majority of the world and in the Europe that we are leaving.

Vladimir Putin: As for the possible loss of some elements of European culture or, say, the genes of European culture in Russia due to the fact that we are turning towards the East and towards Asia.

First of all, we are not turning around due to some conjunctural considerations of today. This reversal is taking place in the world as a whole due to the growth of new centers of economic development. And we started this work long before the tragic events of today in the Ukrainian direction.

As I said at the very beginning, the size of the economy and the influence of the world development centers that have been operating so far are shrinking. The total GDP of the BRICS countries today is larger than the total GDP of the so-called "Big Seven". And these trends not only persist, but are accelerating and strengthening, I mean the pace of economic growth today and in the near future. This is the inevitable course of events, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Whatever happens – this trend will continue.

Of course, once upon a time, as we have just discussed, Peter cut a window to Europe, because it was a center of economic development, prospects, markets, and technologies. As an example, he hung out boots that needed to be sewn, as they did in Holland or somewhere else. But the world is becoming more diverse, and we must respond to this diversity, and we are trying to do so.

As for the elements of European culture, we do not lose these genes and elements of European culture, but in the part of Europe that is called Western. Where is this European culture? She won't be there at all soon. Only architectural monuments will remain. But culture is primarily the consciousness of people. It is being poisoned by today's global liberalists, who put at the forefront not the interests of their own peoples and their own cultural code, but their own ideas connected with global liberalism that are out of touch with reality. In my opinion, this is the key thing.

By definition, we are becoming to a certain extent the centers of traditional European culture and traditional European values, which, if you look back a little, are based even for non-believers, and are generally based primarily on Christian culture.

For us, for Russia, for a multi-confessional country —–you said, I don't know who the author of these words is–-first of all, the military machine of the Russian people. Whoever said this, I don't agree with it, because Russia was originally formed as a multi-confessional state. Let us recall the instructions of the same Catherine and our other leaders, as we would say today, tsars and emperors. When they acquired new territories, they always said: respect the local population, their traditions and beliefs. This is how Russia developed.

And of course, a significant part of Russia's culture is European culture, and we are becoming carriers of this culture. It is killed in European countries. However, now, realizing this, many Europeans are striving to develop further on the basis of their traditional values. Whether they succeed or not, we will see by the results of the European Parliament elections. But what exactly can and should be done is, of course, to develop our country on the basis of the historical traditions on which it was formed as a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state.

You mentioned the role of St. Petersburg, and I agree with that. This is what we are doing, and we are developing all our cultural activities here in many areas, including with our friends and partners all over the world: from Europe, Asia, Latin America, and Africa.

You mentioned St. Petersburg. I look at the picture on the left, the picture on the right. See: in the center of the picture to my right is St. Isaac's Cathedral, to the right is the Senate and Synod building, and to the left is the Admiralty. This is a view from the side of the university where I studied, from the side of Twelve colleges—this is the first government of Russia, to the right—the Menshikov Palace. On this side [on the left] – the arrow of Vasilyevsky Island, rostral columns, the Exchange building, again St. Isaac's. This is the view from the Hermitage.

If we go to this side and look in the opposite direction, that is, at the building of the Twelve Colleges or at the Hermitage, it will be just as beautiful. And why? But because all this is done on the basis of the most important principle and law, which is called "harmony". We will build our policy on these foundations in a harmonious way. Russia will certainly be a part of this multipolar and harmonious world. It is natural for us to rely to a large extent on European principles, on European culture, since its bearer, of course, is the Russian people, but with no less respect we will treat the culture and traditions of other peoples of the Russian Federation. This unity is our strength. (Applause.)

Thanks! Thank you very much!

Sergey Karaganov: Thank you very much, dear friends and colleagues!

It was a very interesting, bright, intellectual and political event. I hope that our audience was interested.

Thank you, Gentlemen Presidents!

Vladimir Putin: I would like to thank our guests and our host.

Thank you, thank you very much! [My Emphasis]

Of course, we mostly recall the end instead of the beginning; so, in adding to my parenthetical remarks above, I see Karaganov’s performance as being a foil when it came to the long discussion of the SMO and global conflict that ignored Palestine, particularly on the nuclear question. The vast amount of economic information and proposals made during Putin’s speech got scant attention. Putin’s explanation of global finance was great; more could’ve been emphasized. To unpack this will take some time, although I have some responses formulated. I felt sad at the exclusion of the guest presidents only given a sop at the end. Bolivia seems well recovered and growing stronger. Zimbabwe got strangled like Cuba but didn’t have anywhere near the resources and a much harder nation to govern but remains proud and willing it seems. Becoming food secure is a big step there. I’m interested in the mood of the crowd, so I’ll need to watch the video. The state ideology question I’ve seen and commented upon before—Russians have their own ethos that collectively constructs their ideology and it comes from the soviet—Deep Soul—the basis of peasant governance from the outset that’s based on consensus, which is conservative in its own nature. Putin knows this as he says at the end:

because all this is done on the basis of the most important principle and law, which is called "harmony". We will build our policy on these foundations in a harmonious way. Russia will certainly be a part of this multipolar and harmonious world. It is natural for us to rely to a large extent on European principles, on European culture, since its bearer, of course, is the Russian people, but with no less respect we will treat the culture and traditions of other peoples of the Russian Federation. This unity is our strength.

And the extensive economic planning is what we ought to see from a nation of chess players.

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