karl, this Sergey Karaganov fellow is most interesting... much of the conversation was really between him and putin with sergey playing devils advocate to putins approach here, especially with regard to the smo.... i had to look him up to find a very slanted western take on him - wikipedia, but a take non the less.... it was liz truss that was the uk pm putin couldn't remember... she visited and had a meeting with lavrov, just before the smo and she was the one that raised the issue of nuclear weapons, but karaganov was pinned with it, thanks the western media...
a very long read, but it was especially fascinating to watch the dynamic unfold from the start between putin who accused him of sleeping thru the first part of his commentary, to offering a different take on what is at stake here and how to move forward... you really get a strong insight into putin off this transcription you have so generously provided.. thank you..
If you read anyone enough, you learn about them. Putin and Karaganov are no different. Karaganov has published lots of op/eds over the years. Politics is also an art, and Putin's a very good painter. Again, IMO not enough is being focused on Putin's economic projections, for the economy drives all else.
You're probably right that it was a dance of sorts, a public performance. My gut feel is that it may also have been more than that, that Karaganov wasn't simply role-playing. As Putin, presumably partly jesting, said, Karaganov has an imperial mindset and in my view values his own opinions rather more highly than they deserve.
He doesn't seem to grasp that Putin has an exceptionally clear picture of Russia in mind but that it isn't about imposing "a national ideology" or "a great idea". He's a strong believer in natural, organic growth and I think he sees his primary role as imbuing the people of Russia and its governing institutions with some core values that will survive him. Such things can't be ordained or imposed by fiat, they can only be encouraged by example and consistency.
Over the years, I've taken apart some of Karaganov's op/ed pieces to reveal their errors, with most of those at my VK site, although I believe one from last August is in the Gym's archives. There's a stable of Russian pundits who RT publishes that are almost always wrong in their formulations that Martyanov consistently attacks. I usually don't spend my time doing that as other things have greater priority. What wasn't scripted in any manner was the talk with the media heads. One thing about editing transcripts is you're forced to read them more closely.
I just read Gilbert Doctorow’s report on this session and it made me really — I was going to say curious, but it is more — nervous….. “No doubt there were many Russians in the audience who enjoyed the sparring on the dais. But there surely were others who shared my concern that there is a battle going on in the Kremlin for the direction of Russian foreign and military policy.”
I see a dance performed at the Bolshoi for a foreign audience. Putin was very firm in what Russian policy is and where it's going. As I wrote, Karaganov served as the Hawk foil to Dove Putin, and has done so before. Read the transcript again; there are two separate halves/parts.
As a side note — I wish I could go to the Bolshoi theatre…alas….. Anyway, thank you, Karl, as always. I am calling you my touch with reality principle!
I don't subscribe to Doctorow's substack but have read quite a lot of his writings over the years and listened to videos and podcasts.
From my perspective he's informative and enjoyable, at times very perceptive. I greatly enjoy the local colour he provides. On some issues, however, particularly of the sort you're discussing, he at times seems a little volatile to me, almost jumpy.
So, FWIW, I've ended up discounting his views on such issues . . . not ignoring them (he is after all deeply informed about Russia) but rather simply keeping them in mind as a possibility.
a fairly scary article from doctorow, especially towards the end...yes, as i read this transcript of karls, i could see the contrasting views between karaganov and putin, but i am not sure how much stock i would put into it... thanks for sharing it!
well that is certainly true if one reads down this transcript that karl has provided.... it would be summarized quickly with karaganov on the one hand and putin on the other... i will have to see what doctorow has to say.. thanks for the link..
He does mold it with a little assistance from Lavrov. I'll report on his African trip later today. The West makes it easy as all Russia need do is be honest and continue its longstanding credibility with the Global Majority. All the West really has is its media megaphone that ever more nations have learned to mute.
The "we'll arm your enemies" was an excellent hammer to the head. Lavrov was asked a Q about that today:
"Question: In your opinion, did they hear Vladimir Putin's signal about the possible supply of our weapons to other regions of the world? Understand?
"Sergey Lavrov: I have no doubt that they have heard and will understand. There are still people who know how to analyze. They are simply engaged in escalation in order to please their radical electorate and so on every day before the next election campaign. I think they will understand. Or rather, I think that they have understood and will draw conclusions. This is an absolutely, as they say, symmetrical response. If you arm our enemy, we will decide for ourselves how to respond to your hostile actions."
I appreciate very much Doctorow's insights, hard to tell if there is an inner clash in the Kremlin knowing full well Karaganov’s hawkish stance on the SBO and nuclear doctrine. Watched the discussions live waiting for the main issue to come up, Ukraine, Putin is a hard working guy, more than three hours with a mostly unfriendly panel of news agencies, and the next day another long performance, not easy to keep calm under so much pressure. Check out the latest Medvedev post on TG, liverwurst Scholtz gets spanked real hard, and deservedly so. Any news on MoA? Cheers to all.
RT mentioned an X note by Medvedev. I was going to look at his Telegram, but I needed to work in the yard on our very nice Saturday. I imagine Putin watched some video of the other sessions, had a workout, some PT, some good meals and eight hours of sleep. Lavrov's back from Africa and will report. The pace doesn't abate. I'll need to work hard to have his level of energy when I'm 71 in a few years. As for b, I don't know, and I have no line to him in Germany. He thought he'd be back home by the 6th and today's the 8th. Tomorrow's Sunday, so maybe he'll post a week in review and opine a bit.
Karaganov seems to be what in my part of the world would be described as a ‘daft lad’. His thinking is in vague abstract impressions not being capable of matching any manifestable phenomena. He veers about from one Boris bridge to another with only distant associations with what the topic is, or what others are saying. Putin’s general concepts tend to be instantiated in current realities, unlike Karaganov’s air castles.
But Karaganov seems quite dangerous if his bombastic allusory authoritarian belligerences were to influence others to act upon them.
He seems to suffer from a bullshit trajectory (progressive mental dysfunctions, ways of losing touch with relevant realities) of emeritus degenerata: someone was good at something, retires from doing it, but continues to invent authoritative claims about it, losing internal scholarship. Whether he was ever good at realistic thinking is difficult to determine. Maybe he always was a bullshitter with a veneer of plausibility which has worn away.
He invariably spouts irrelevant nonsense. Someone called him out possibly the day before in the discussion with the top editors of international news agencies.
I wonder if he is aware that he periodically snipes at and demeans Putin. What a nerve. I don’t think he detected the irony in Putin’s “But it is, of course, necessary to correctly, thoroughly, beautifully, intelligibly arrange and submit everything. Please help us. We will be very grateful to you.”
As I wrote, he's used as a foil to allow the audience to paint a better picture of Putin in their minds, since that's the purpose of a foil. He's part of the nomenklatura that has yet to fade away. He reminds me of the Boyars Tolstoy wrote about.
Escobar commented on one aspect I merely emphasized since I wanted to get the transcript published and it was already a very long read--the "harmonic multipolar world", the quest for harmony which is a Confucian ideal. As I said, lots to unpack.
Off Topic: Scott Ritter says we are within one millisecond of nuclear war
I am posting this here because MOA is not up and anyway I can't post there
Scott on Jimmy Dore show. Begins talking about the leaked plan of 300,000 troops from NATO to attack Russia --- it is impossible at this time. He thinks it was leaked to show it is absurd.
However, the decision to allow firing into Russia by Ukrainians and others could trigger a nuclear response. This is the millisecond when nuclear war begins.
"BREAKING! U.S. Plan To Deploy Soldiers To Fight Russia ! w/ Scott Ritter
IMO, Putin's aim in his dance with Karaganov over the use of nukes is to get the NATO pukes to think hard about the consequences of their actions, which to-date they clearly haven't, and is the main reason NATO's losing so badly. The Outlaw US Empire was finally able to locate a Minuteman III that was capable of being test-launched after three previous failures. Having Russian hypersonic assets in Cuba is another signal. Further, Putin's very detailed talk about how the Outlaw US Empire is defeating itself at the media heads meeting and the plenary session is another deep prod into the hegemon's gut to make it take a look at itself. Escobar reports there are 59 nations ready to join BRICS and SCO now. To ignore what Putin said over the last two days is a major mistake.
Of course, you are right! My worry….oh boy, seriously…..my worry is that the key word here is TO THINK…are they capable to do it in their empirical ‘greatness’ and arrogance?: “to get the NATO pukes to think hard about the consequences of their actions”.
karl, this Sergey Karaganov fellow is most interesting... much of the conversation was really between him and putin with sergey playing devils advocate to putins approach here, especially with regard to the smo.... i had to look him up to find a very slanted western take on him - wikipedia, but a take non the less.... it was liz truss that was the uk pm putin couldn't remember... she visited and had a meeting with lavrov, just before the smo and she was the one that raised the issue of nuclear weapons, but karaganov was pinned with it, thanks the western media...
a very long read, but it was especially fascinating to watch the dynamic unfold from the start between putin who accused him of sleeping thru the first part of his commentary, to offering a different take on what is at stake here and how to move forward... you really get a strong insight into putin off this transcription you have so generously provided.. thank you..
If you read anyone enough, you learn about them. Putin and Karaganov are no different. Karaganov has published lots of op/eds over the years. Politics is also an art, and Putin's a very good painter. Again, IMO not enough is being focused on Putin's economic projections, for the economy drives all else.
weird, double post.. deleted it for clarity here..
Yes, as James said thanks for this, Karl.
You're probably right that it was a dance of sorts, a public performance. My gut feel is that it may also have been more than that, that Karaganov wasn't simply role-playing. As Putin, presumably partly jesting, said, Karaganov has an imperial mindset and in my view values his own opinions rather more highly than they deserve.
He doesn't seem to grasp that Putin has an exceptionally clear picture of Russia in mind but that it isn't about imposing "a national ideology" or "a great idea". He's a strong believer in natural, organic growth and I think he sees his primary role as imbuing the people of Russia and its governing institutions with some core values that will survive him. Such things can't be ordained or imposed by fiat, they can only be encouraged by example and consistency.
Over the years, I've taken apart some of Karaganov's op/ed pieces to reveal their errors, with most of those at my VK site, although I believe one from last August is in the Gym's archives. There's a stable of Russian pundits who RT publishes that are almost always wrong in their formulations that Martyanov consistently attacks. I usually don't spend my time doing that as other things have greater priority. What wasn't scripted in any manner was the talk with the media heads. One thing about editing transcripts is you're forced to read them more closely.
I just read Gilbert Doctorow’s report on this session and it made me really — I was going to say curious, but it is more — nervous….. “No doubt there were many Russians in the audience who enjoyed the sparring on the dais. But there surely were others who shared my concern that there is a battle going on in the Kremlin for the direction of Russian foreign and military policy.”
https://gilbertdoctorow.com/2024/06/07/cuban-missile-crisis-2-0/
I see a dance performed at the Bolshoi for a foreign audience. Putin was very firm in what Russian policy is and where it's going. As I wrote, Karaganov served as the Hawk foil to Dove Putin, and has done so before. Read the transcript again; there are two separate halves/parts.
As a side note — I wish I could go to the Bolshoi theatre…alas….. Anyway, thank you, Karl, as always. I am calling you my touch with reality principle!
I don't subscribe to Doctorow's substack but have read quite a lot of his writings over the years and listened to videos and podcasts.
From my perspective he's informative and enjoyable, at times very perceptive. I greatly enjoy the local colour he provides. On some issues, however, particularly of the sort you're discussing, he at times seems a little volatile to me, almost jumpy.
So, FWIW, I've ended up discounting his views on such issues . . . not ignoring them (he is after all deeply informed about Russia) but rather simply keeping them in mind as a possibility.
a fairly scary article from doctorow, especially towards the end...yes, as i read this transcript of karls, i could see the contrasting views between karaganov and putin, but i am not sure how much stock i would put into it... thanks for sharing it!
well that is certainly true if one reads down this transcript that karl has provided.... it would be summarized quickly with karaganov on the one hand and putin on the other... i will have to see what doctorow has to say.. thanks for the link..
interesting speculation.... i like this idea..
He does mold it with a little assistance from Lavrov. I'll report on his African trip later today. The West makes it easy as all Russia need do is be honest and continue its longstanding credibility with the Global Majority. All the West really has is its media megaphone that ever more nations have learned to mute.
The "we'll arm your enemies" was an excellent hammer to the head. Lavrov was asked a Q about that today:
"Question: In your opinion, did they hear Vladimir Putin's signal about the possible supply of our weapons to other regions of the world? Understand?
"Sergey Lavrov: I have no doubt that they have heard and will understand. There are still people who know how to analyze. They are simply engaged in escalation in order to please their radical electorate and so on every day before the next election campaign. I think they will understand. Or rather, I think that they have understood and will draw conclusions. This is an absolutely, as they say, symmetrical response. If you arm our enemy, we will decide for ourselves how to respond to your hostile actions."
https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/1955159/
There were some other short Qs. I'll likely add that to the end of my Lavrov in Africa item.
Well, it's not just "one key man"; it's the combined efforts of many, although not all will have statues made in homage.
I LOVE a description of Putin’s statecraft! Thank you for your reply.
I appreciate very much Doctorow's insights, hard to tell if there is an inner clash in the Kremlin knowing full well Karaganov’s hawkish stance on the SBO and nuclear doctrine. Watched the discussions live waiting for the main issue to come up, Ukraine, Putin is a hard working guy, more than three hours with a mostly unfriendly panel of news agencies, and the next day another long performance, not easy to keep calm under so much pressure. Check out the latest Medvedev post on TG, liverwurst Scholtz gets spanked real hard, and deservedly so. Any news on MoA? Cheers to all.
RT mentioned an X note by Medvedev. I was going to look at his Telegram, but I needed to work in the yard on our very nice Saturday. I imagine Putin watched some video of the other sessions, had a workout, some PT, some good meals and eight hours of sleep. Lavrov's back from Africa and will report. The pace doesn't abate. I'll need to work hard to have his level of energy when I'm 71 in a few years. As for b, I don't know, and I have no line to him in Germany. He thought he'd be back home by the 6th and today's the 8th. Tomorrow's Sunday, so maybe he'll post a week in review and opine a bit.
Karaganov seems to be what in my part of the world would be described as a ‘daft lad’. His thinking is in vague abstract impressions not being capable of matching any manifestable phenomena. He veers about from one Boris bridge to another with only distant associations with what the topic is, or what others are saying. Putin’s general concepts tend to be instantiated in current realities, unlike Karaganov’s air castles.
But Karaganov seems quite dangerous if his bombastic allusory authoritarian belligerences were to influence others to act upon them.
He seems to suffer from a bullshit trajectory (progressive mental dysfunctions, ways of losing touch with relevant realities) of emeritus degenerata: someone was good at something, retires from doing it, but continues to invent authoritative claims about it, losing internal scholarship. Whether he was ever good at realistic thinking is difficult to determine. Maybe he always was a bullshitter with a veneer of plausibility which has worn away.
He invariably spouts irrelevant nonsense. Someone called him out possibly the day before in the discussion with the top editors of international news agencies.
I wonder if he is aware that he periodically snipes at and demeans Putin. What a nerve. I don’t think he detected the irony in Putin’s “But it is, of course, necessary to correctly, thoroughly, beautifully, intelligibly arrange and submit everything. Please help us. We will be very grateful to you.”
I found him tedious and boring.
As I wrote, he's used as a foil to allow the audience to paint a better picture of Putin in their minds, since that's the purpose of a foil. He's part of the nomenklatura that has yet to fade away. He reminds me of the Boyars Tolstoy wrote about.
Dear Karl Thanks for posting this - it was quite a shock to read someone so snide as Karaganov, and I wondered why VVP bothered to put up with him
But perhaps it was merely to illustrate the move towards the East and away from the western inflected
Still the point about a general policy on immigration was useful
As always it takes two or three readings to be able to get a grip on these wide ranging discussions
Escobar commented on one aspect I merely emphasized since I wanted to get the transcript published and it was already a very long read--the "harmonic multipolar world", the quest for harmony which is a Confucian ideal. As I said, lots to unpack.
Off Topic: Scott Ritter says we are within one millisecond of nuclear war
I am posting this here because MOA is not up and anyway I can't post there
Scott on Jimmy Dore show. Begins talking about the leaked plan of 300,000 troops from NATO to attack Russia --- it is impossible at this time. He thinks it was leaked to show it is absurd.
However, the decision to allow firing into Russia by Ukrainians and others could trigger a nuclear response. This is the millisecond when nuclear war begins.
"BREAKING! U.S. Plan To Deploy Soldiers To Fight Russia ! w/ Scott Ritter
174K views 1 day ago #TheJimmyDoreShow"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f6zz8SVFZw
IMO, Putin's aim in his dance with Karaganov over the use of nukes is to get the NATO pukes to think hard about the consequences of their actions, which to-date they clearly haven't, and is the main reason NATO's losing so badly. The Outlaw US Empire was finally able to locate a Minuteman III that was capable of being test-launched after three previous failures. Having Russian hypersonic assets in Cuba is another signal. Further, Putin's very detailed talk about how the Outlaw US Empire is defeating itself at the media heads meeting and the plenary session is another deep prod into the hegemon's gut to make it take a look at itself. Escobar reports there are 59 nations ready to join BRICS and SCO now. To ignore what Putin said over the last two days is a major mistake.
Of course, you are right! My worry….oh boy, seriously…..my worry is that the key word here is TO THINK…are they capable to do it in their empirical ‘greatness’ and arrogance?: “to get the NATO pukes to think hard about the consequences of their actions”.