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Nap is a "Patriot" (capital-P), as are most of his guests except Crooke, who is British.

I don't have that problem, so I can see the validity of Karl's, Hudson's, Wolff's and Doctorow's argument. I just modify it to say: 1) they're all involved for their own reasons, and 2) it doesn't matter because they all end up doing the same things.

Doctorow tells me that the distinction makes a difference, but I quote Mr. Spock (IIRC): "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

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The US uses proxies, and being humans not robots they have their own agendas/interests of course. Look at Zelensky, a failed project, an actor who has reached his use by date, it's likely his desperate enough to try anything to prolong and draw in the Americans, perhaps with some help from the Brits. And then there are the azov nazi criminals who'll escape and run rampant. Using proxies is playing with fire, but that's where we are - in the accumulation of consequences.

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