RT’s editor in chief Margarita Simonyan posted the audio of this conversation to her Telegram then provided the Transcript of the conversation of high-ranking officers of the Bundeswehr dated 02/19/2024 at her VK site. This was made known to my by the following Q&A directed to Lavrov at today’s
The TAURUS debate is very reminiscent of the Third Reich Wunderwaffen topic. Everybody knows (I hope) that sending a very limited amount of these cruise missiles to Ukraine will make NO difference, except in the propaganda space. Same was true in NAZI Germany. It is astounding to me how similar the current Imperialist West is to Germany of the 1040s: If we just believe in military victory hard enough it will happen. "Weee have new Wunderwaffen und you vill be surprised, Russland". Simply childish. Too bad real people die for this crap.
Here is a piece of information that might be new to some but is well established. In February 1940, after almost six months of relative inactivity on the Western Front- such that it was beginning to occur to some observers that the entire war might be phony- the British and French organised a 100,000 man expeditionary force to go to northern Scandinavia and provide assistance to Finland in the Winter War.
At the same time the British in Iraq and the French in Syria were planning, after having conducted extensive reconnaissance, to bomb oil facilities in Baku, in the Azeri SSR.
An Italian diplomat, I forget his name, remarked at the time that there was nothing new about states waging war without formal declarations, but that France and Britain were doing something unprecedented: they had declared war on Germany but were conducting no hostilities.
Looking back it seems obvious to me that the plan in Paris and London was to provoke the USSR into war and then, having fastened onto its northern and southern flanks, to anticipate the inevitable Nazi attack. The one that became, in much less hopeful circumstances, Operation Barbarossa.
If this theory is correct, and Hitler simply failed to carry out his assigned role, then the current NATO attacks on Russia-featuring almost exactly the forces aligned in Barbarossa plus the British Empire-does indeed resemble the same old line up of forces.
The absence of Communism, as a threat to western capitalism, removes some of the urgency behind the attack on Russia but the underlying continuities remain: the West was anti-communist because communism was a threat to the ability of the capitalists to make money. They were prompted by capitalism's engrained tendency for expansion and plunder, which is obviously what lies behind the current attempts to weaken Russia in order to devour it.
Growing up through the 70s and 80s, we always were taught that NATO, and our Western Forces were honourable, decent, and right.
The reality is very different. They are terrorists, and agents of wickedness, with no morality anywhere in their strategies and practices. Shame on our nations for this.
We now have a true ("official") account of the meeting that preceded Scholz's announcement.
Scalp, StormShadow or Taurus missiles require the DIRECT intervention of the French, British or German armies.
Germany cannot be in a position to attack Russia. The 1945, 1959 and 1989 reunification agreements are clear. Using German weapons, German soldiers or German territory to attack Russia would take us back to the spring of 1945.
We must now interpret Macron's delirious remarks as a cover for what Scholz was about to reveal. France and Great Britain already have operational military forces in Ukraine. By targeting and programming weapons, they are of course participating in the conflict.
Today, the French Foreign Minister curiously declared
The presence of Western troops in Ukraine would not cross "the threshold of belligerence".
And Macron, once again
"No one spoke of the possibility of participating in combat with Ukraine, but several participants mentioned the fact that, for reasons of efficiency, we could talk about being on the spot through demining or operational maintenance activities."
Macron confirms Scholz's words and the conversation of the German military.
In my opinion, Scholz is aware of the trap and is trying, as Merkel did, to get out of this madness.
Do we also interpret Russia's week old revocation of the 1990 treaty as a stiffener for Scholtz spine or a gesture reminding the German parliament of the consequences of Scholtz perfidious scheming and simultaneous entrapment?
IMO, the conversation reveals the Germany military assumed the vote would okay the use of Taurus. The initial vote that approved the weapons and money package was vague of Taurus, so a special vote was held promoted by the CDU--Merkel's party--and that was voted down almost 3:1. The parliamentarians seem to be aware of the consequences.
I expect Putin will convene a Security Council meeting over this, which we may or may not learn about.
Thank you Karl. Therein lies the immensity of the problem for Germany and the very reason why these commanders should be reassigned to cleaning shitholes.
THEY ASSUMED POLITICAL ENDORSEMENT for a major escalation. This is done in a home environment where there is alarmed debate and sharp differences of political positions and a governing party with a fragile majority and regularly pilloried for making absurd statements. Even the Foreign Minister does head spins of 360 (or is that 720) degrees ;))
No, these morons don't even know which way the wind blows whereas any cadet level sniper takes that into account.
Here we have Zelensky and his past military commander Zaluzhny assuming a spring offensive victory and 100,000 dead as a result.
These German commanders are entirely unfit for purpose and that purpose is to defend their homeland, their people, their national integrity. Shaft 'em pronto! They work for another nation, not their own.
we are told the destruction of nordsteam had nothing to do with the west, and yet this obsession with 'winning' at all costs, against russia is here discussing the destruction of the crimea bridge... these folks must really think people are stupid and can be easily deceived.. they are wrong about this.. dead wrong.. and russia isn't going to sit idly by with this continued ramp up in direct NATO participation in this war... it has been a NATO - russia war all along.. those who are following this are very aware of what is happening here....
how does the german public and parliament respond to these revelations? i suppose some are going to try to sweep them under the carpet, but there are too many things at present sitting under the carpet and not much room for any more!
Die Union fordert die Lieferung der Taurus-Raketen an die Ukraine. Die Koalitionspartner der SPD - Grüne und FDP - sind ebenfalls größtenteils dafür und hatten Scholz für die Ablehnung kritisiert.
AfD has become an outspoken pacifist party that is gaining more and more support, which is why the government, starting with the Left and the Greens, disguised as anti-fascists, want to ban this party and even hunt down its supporters, or even supporters of Peace.
The Union calls for the Taurus missiles to be delivered to Ukraine. The SPD's coalition partners - the Greens and FDP - are also mostly in favor of it and had criticized Scholz for rejecting it.
Twenty to thirty years ago who would have thought the "Green" political movement would morph in to a war mongering, anti-environment group of crazed zealots?
One does not just bolt a Taurus (US, UK, French version onto a bomber/fighter.
The jet has a weapon control system, a fairly complex info environment probably primitive/unique to Kievan aircraft. Therefore, integrating the SW of the missile to the aircraft requires the German designers big insight, lots of drawings and code from the aircraft. Seems the suppliers have done it for the U.S. UK stuff.
The missile launching rails will have to be built or modified. The electronics have to be installed/modified to download targeting and flight path data at the last minute prior to launch. Mechanical and electrical interfaces, cabling, fusing. The techies need to know what they are doing (design and manufacture), the maintenance crew needs it, the ordnance team needs it and the pilots will need to figure out how best to deliver ordnance on target. Twelve months looks about right.
Time for the Russkies to take out some more French military and continue with the UK, US and German boots on the ground.
These guys are idiots. They're talking about the manufacturers going to Ukraine as if the Russians care whether it's a German general or a German civilian bringing missiles into Ukraine. All they're doing is revealing themselves as cowards. Real WWII Nazis wouldn't have given a crap.
If a bunch of Taurus missiles destroy the Crimean bridge - assuming that's even possible, and I doubt these guys know, let alone the state of Russian air defense around the bridge - Russia is likely to drop a hypersonic missile with a conventional warhead on the manufacturer's plant if not the German military HQ.
A merger of French, British and Italian missile manufacturers, which has since taken over German and Spanish ones. Group HQ in France, but has the equivalent of substantial missile manufacturing companies in each country.
✓ and Vladimir Putin's speech was on Thursday, 29.02.2024
" " " Putin noted that while accusing Russia of plans to attack NATO allies in Europe, Western allies were “selecting targets for striking our territory” and “talking about the possibility of sending a NATO contingent to Ukraine.”
“We remember the fate of those who sent their troop contingents to the territory of our country,” the Russian leader said in an apparent allusion to the failed invasions by Napoleon and Hitler. “Now the consequences for the potential invaders will be far more tragic.” " " "
*****
In one short week, that's a lot!
Especially if we add RT's "revelation" on Friday March 1st of a "conversation" dated 02.19.2024, which makes it possible to understand the succession of speeches mentioned above.
Interception or leak? The 45 minutes long "kind of Skyped conversation" (), i.e. a meeting between senior officers of the German army was in order to consider the possibilities and conditions for using the Taurus against, for example, the Kersch bridge or other targets in Russia.
As are UK-StormShadow and French-Scalp, the Taurus but must be fired from compatible aircraft. The French Mirage 2000 is compatible, and France has now agreed to transfer some to the Ukraine.
And that the final programming, targeting and course requires programming by the supplier country.
The camouflage of direct military intervention behind the manufacturer of the avionics more or less common to these three missiles is a direct implication of France.
The manufacturer obviously does not have the intelligence and satellite data to obtain the necessary information.
*****
This " Meeting" sheds particular light on the preceding episodes.
The "leaked conversation" dates from 02.19.2024. No doubt it was immediately interpreted by the Russian army. AndPutin.
This explains his precision when speak of the targeting and the official presence of NATO troops in Ukraine.
It is likely that the Russians immediately made it known to Germany and France, through the appropriate channels, that they had the evidence.
*****
So let's go back in chronological order
February 19: communication intercepted
Feb. 21 to 26: Scholz makes a series of statements confirming his refusal to send Taurus.
Feb.27: meeting at the Élysée Palace and confirmation of "NATO's plan" to send troops to Ukraine
Feb.28: All France's allies reject Macron's idea.
As Victor Hugo write
"Waterloo, morne plaine.
Il attendait Grouchy, c'était Blücher"
{"Waterloo, dull plain.
He expected Grouchy, it was Blücher "}
Feb. 29: speech by V.Putin
March 1: public revelation of the famous "conversation"
*****
This chronology would explain why Scholz threw the French and British under the bus, and why Macron in turn tried to get everyone on board, in order to conceal the fact that he and Boris Johnson and their successors had exceeded their political mandates.
*****
Because Macron is even overstepping France's constitution, and it's (retired) general officers who are making this public.
And the Americans are keeping their distance, ready to leave the scene of the crime and hide their responsibility behind "individual ones".
Yes, as in Gaza...
Who and what the "New York Times" on Feb.25 is published for, and confirming the presence of more than 10 CIA bases in Ukraine for at least 10 years. Was Russians aware.
My conclusion(hope) is that "someone" in the West is trying to stop the ticking time bomb. Putin, while protecting his country, is trying to limit the escalation.
It's reminiscent of Dr Strangelove's War Room: no one is immune from a miscommunication, a targeting error, an unfortunate initiative by a pilot, or the hatred or madness of some actor in the chain of command.
Hope and fear...
Especially when I hear all these suckers in France and Germany, journalists and politicians, who after telling us that we shouldn't be afraid of Putin and his army, that his red lines were all crossable, are now telling us that we shouldn't be afraid of a nuclear war.
Yes, remember. The full titke of Stanley Kubrick film is:
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
****
Thanks Karl, sorry for my english, not so easy for my french mind...
Thanks for providing the timeline; it's very helpful. Agree with your analysis. You could add Putin's meeting with Shoigu on the 20th, then Putin's visit to Kazan where he inspected the new Tu-160Ms on the 21-22nd. Putin met with the Security Council yesterday, with the very short readout saying they initially discussed the nukes in space issue. And facts continue to be made on the ground.
I interpret Macron's silly oration as a bid to establish French leadership when the Uited States goes home-as looks increasingly likely. So far as Germany is concerned Macron is reminding us that France enjoyed 'victor' status in 1945 and is therefore not hobbled by the treaties binding the Bundesrepublik, just as it hosts no US bases with tens of thousands of soldiers, as Germany does.
Germany is France's last remaining rival in Europe, now that the UK has left and poor old Macron is desperate for anything that will make him look like a bringer of 'la gloire.' After all at everything else he has failed miserably.
This conversation, if real, is at such an elementary level of planning that either the German military is largely uninvolved in the operations in Ukraine or it consists of poseurs and political appointees.
IMO, what's revealed is the hubris of the planners. Obviously, the conference call lacked proper security and was intercepted by Russia. Despite the fact that all agreed the missile would probably not destroy the bridge or make any difference in the conflict, the scheming went ahead as the assumption was they'd be ordered to do so after the vote approving Taurus's use.
One major outcome will be the hardening of the Russian public and military now that NATO involvement is 100% proven. I wonder if this SNAFU will cause an acceleration in the plots to turn Moldova and/or Armenia into the next Ukraine or modify the Russian General Staff's plans? And as I mentioned in reply to another comment, there was the "Freudian Slip" by the Outlaw US Empire's "Defense" Secretary noted by Lavrov that NATO will take over once Ukraine is pulverized.
One would think that some exercises are necessary after missile rails have been configured to launch dummy missiles. That might be noticeable as well as movement of bodies from and to certain locations.
The whole "Macrony" team and all the media propagandists are "debout sur les rames"
(standing on the oars ¿)
Scholz revealed all, they are stuned
Scholz revealed the essential because he knew the discussion was going to be public.
And now they go "Saving Private Ryan"
They all confirm the technical information, namely that all these French and British missiles are fired with the active participation of targeting, maintenance and programming teams....
The French government has just
In the space of a few days admited that we have "some" helper in Ukraine, announced that he authorized special forces to intervene in Ukraine "but without participating in combat", an oratorical precaution because we will soon recognize that French soldiers are dying in Ukraine. Russia will target them specifically and has likely already established identities and assignments
The last line of defense is to explain that this does not make us more belligerent than when the USSR supplied arms to the Vietnamese.
It is an extraordinary line of defense which should not be understood in the same way in Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
But as you know, not as " french army soldiers" but humanitarian, or contractors....
****
Apologize.
Not easy, sometime lost in translations
****
Macron
"Il n'y a pas de consensus pour envoyer de manière officielle assumée des troupes au sol."
OFFICIELLE & ASSUMÉE
"There is no consensus to officially send ground troops and take responsability." ( translate it please in correct language)
1/ Of course, for this to happen, Macron needs the agreement of the French National Assembly. He may succeed, but the debate will already be stormy, and will reveal the economic and social consequences for the French.
2/ The revelation (by Scholz) of the involvement of French troops for "maintenance" and targeting is already being criticized on legal grounds by an association of former general officers.
Yes it already has - the increasing flow of leaks revelations desperations confusions and cross purposes in house fighting not to say sheer incompetence...
... is indication enough about how this war is being lost on one side and won on the other and is a significant measure of progress
Everyone knew the yanks were tapped in to every conversation: no one 'thought' about the Russians, now it is known they too are tapped in
If Gerhartz and Graefe last any longer than the next 48 hours then one can assume the German Parliament is utterly powerless given that it voted 3:1 against further armaments. Time will tell.
Interestingly, it does appear that some cracks are showing in the nato shithole as we have German commanders confidently scheming for British support to hatch their plot to bomb Russia if the German Ministry is incapable of making a decision that suits their timeframe.
What an excellent phone conversation and clearly indicates the absolute 'brilliant' technology the westies use. Stalin is likely chuckling in his lair "I've heard it all before so pour me another drink as it could get interesting now". Take a bow Vladimir, your team is still top of its game.
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (known simply and more commonly as Dr. Strangelove) is a 1964 political satire black comedy film directed, co-written, and produced by Stanley Kubrick and starring Peter Sellers in three roles, including the title character.
Do you think German Generals like being occupied by Anglo-American forces? Do you think German Generals discuss terrorist attacks on Russia on unsecured phone lines? The entire episode sounds like German Generals creating a situation to indirectly prevent Germany from crossing Russian red lines.
How do we know it was an unsecured phone line? It was a conference call and Russia may have the ability to intercept "secured" lines. And remember, a 'secure' line is only so until it isn't.
The TAURUS debate is very reminiscent of the Third Reich Wunderwaffen topic. Everybody knows (I hope) that sending a very limited amount of these cruise missiles to Ukraine will make NO difference, except in the propaganda space. Same was true in NAZI Germany. It is astounding to me how similar the current Imperialist West is to Germany of the 1040s: If we just believe in military victory hard enough it will happen. "Weee have new Wunderwaffen und you vill be surprised, Russland". Simply childish. Too bad real people die for this crap.
Typo alert !1940s!
Interesting thought, Johann.
Here is a piece of information that might be new to some but is well established. In February 1940, after almost six months of relative inactivity on the Western Front- such that it was beginning to occur to some observers that the entire war might be phony- the British and French organised a 100,000 man expeditionary force to go to northern Scandinavia and provide assistance to Finland in the Winter War.
At the same time the British in Iraq and the French in Syria were planning, after having conducted extensive reconnaissance, to bomb oil facilities in Baku, in the Azeri SSR.
An Italian diplomat, I forget his name, remarked at the time that there was nothing new about states waging war without formal declarations, but that France and Britain were doing something unprecedented: they had declared war on Germany but were conducting no hostilities.
Looking back it seems obvious to me that the plan in Paris and London was to provoke the USSR into war and then, having fastened onto its northern and southern flanks, to anticipate the inevitable Nazi attack. The one that became, in much less hopeful circumstances, Operation Barbarossa.
If this theory is correct, and Hitler simply failed to carry out his assigned role, then the current NATO attacks on Russia-featuring almost exactly the forces aligned in Barbarossa plus the British Empire-does indeed resemble the same old line up of forces.
The absence of Communism, as a threat to western capitalism, removes some of the urgency behind the attack on Russia but the underlying continuities remain: the West was anti-communist because communism was a threat to the ability of the capitalists to make money. They were prompted by capitalism's engrained tendency for expansion and plunder, which is obviously what lies behind the current attempts to weaken Russia in order to devour it.
Even ONE will make a difference.
It's Back To The Future of third Reich
Back to Spring 45
Growing up through the 70s and 80s, we always were taught that NATO, and our Western Forces were honourable, decent, and right.
The reality is very different. They are terrorists, and agents of wickedness, with no morality anywhere in their strategies and practices. Shame on our nations for this.
Every nation, big and small, has the potential to become NAZI Germany if a crime syndicate takes power. Common theme: "NWO."
We now have a true ("official") account of the meeting that preceded Scholz's announcement.
Scalp, StormShadow or Taurus missiles require the DIRECT intervention of the French, British or German armies.
Germany cannot be in a position to attack Russia. The 1945, 1959 and 1989 reunification agreements are clear. Using German weapons, German soldiers or German territory to attack Russia would take us back to the spring of 1945.
We must now interpret Macron's delirious remarks as a cover for what Scholz was about to reveal. France and Great Britain already have operational military forces in Ukraine. By targeting and programming weapons, they are of course participating in the conflict.
Today, the French Foreign Minister curiously declared
The presence of Western troops in Ukraine would not cross "the threshold of belligerence".
And Macron, once again
"No one spoke of the possibility of participating in combat with Ukraine, but several participants mentioned the fact that, for reasons of efficiency, we could talk about being on the spot through demining or operational maintenance activities."
Macron confirms Scholz's words and the conversation of the German military.
In my opinion, Scholz is aware of the trap and is trying, as Merkel did, to get out of this madness.
It's getting late
A few minutes to midnight
Dr Strangelove is "Back On The Block"
Do we also interpret Russia's week old revocation of the 1990 treaty as a stiffener for Scholtz spine or a gesture reminding the German parliament of the consequences of Scholtz perfidious scheming and simultaneous entrapment?
IMO, the conversation reveals the Germany military assumed the vote would okay the use of Taurus. The initial vote that approved the weapons and money package was vague of Taurus, so a special vote was held promoted by the CDU--Merkel's party--and that was voted down almost 3:1. The parliamentarians seem to be aware of the consequences.
I expect Putin will convene a Security Council meeting over this, which we may or may not learn about.
Thank you Karl. Therein lies the immensity of the problem for Germany and the very reason why these commanders should be reassigned to cleaning shitholes.
THEY ASSUMED POLITICAL ENDORSEMENT for a major escalation. This is done in a home environment where there is alarmed debate and sharp differences of political positions and a governing party with a fragile majority and regularly pilloried for making absurd statements. Even the Foreign Minister does head spins of 360 (or is that 720) degrees ;))
No, these morons don't even know which way the wind blows whereas any cadet level sniper takes that into account.
Here we have Zelensky and his past military commander Zaluzhny assuming a spring offensive victory and 100,000 dead as a result.
These German commanders are entirely unfit for purpose and that purpose is to defend their homeland, their people, their national integrity. Shaft 'em pronto! They work for another nation, not their own.
Did you note the conference call was international making it much easier to intercept. So, Op/Sec was violated and is why we know about it.
fascinating karl.. thanks...
we are told the destruction of nordsteam had nothing to do with the west, and yet this obsession with 'winning' at all costs, against russia is here discussing the destruction of the crimea bridge... these folks must really think people are stupid and can be easily deceived.. they are wrong about this.. dead wrong.. and russia isn't going to sit idly by with this continued ramp up in direct NATO participation in this war... it has been a NATO - russia war all along.. those who are following this are very aware of what is happening here....
how does the german public and parliament respond to these revelations? i suppose some are going to try to sweep them under the carpet, but there are too many things at present sitting under the carpet and not much room for any more!
Crisis in the German governement.
Die Union fordert die Lieferung der Taurus-Raketen an die Ukraine. Die Koalitionspartner der SPD - Grüne und FDP - sind ebenfalls größtenteils dafür und hatten Scholz für die Ablehnung kritisiert.
AfD has become an outspoken pacifist party that is gaining more and more support, which is why the government, starting with the Left and the Greens, disguised as anti-fascists, want to ban this party and even hunt down its supporters, or even supporters of Peace.
here is the translation of your german text..
The Union calls for the Taurus missiles to be delivered to Ukraine. The SPD's coalition partners - the Greens and FDP - are also mostly in favor of it and had criticized Scholz for rejecting it.
Twenty to thirty years ago who would have thought the "Green" political movement would morph in to a war mongering, anti-environment group of crazed zealots?
it is both fascinating and extremely disturbing... there is nothing green about war, or warmongers..
This thing is going to “get out of hand”.
One does not just bolt a Taurus (US, UK, French version onto a bomber/fighter.
The jet has a weapon control system, a fairly complex info environment probably primitive/unique to Kievan aircraft. Therefore, integrating the SW of the missile to the aircraft requires the German designers big insight, lots of drawings and code from the aircraft. Seems the suppliers have done it for the U.S. UK stuff.
Interesting also the need for US imagery etc.
American accents!
There's more as this RT news item explains, https://www.rt.com/russia/593553-lavrov-austin-ukraine-nato-plans/
The missile launching rails will have to be built or modified. The electronics have to be installed/modified to download targeting and flight path data at the last minute prior to launch. Mechanical and electrical interfaces, cabling, fusing. The techies need to know what they are doing (design and manufacture), the maintenance crew needs it, the ordnance team needs it and the pilots will need to figure out how best to deliver ordnance on target. Twelve months looks about right.
Time for the Russkies to take out some more French military and continue with the UK, US and German boots on the ground.
These fucking mad dogs NAZIs have learned nothing from history, both long past and recent.
They are going to force Russia to escalate to levels that the world can do without.
These guys are idiots. They're talking about the manufacturers going to Ukraine as if the Russians care whether it's a German general or a German civilian bringing missiles into Ukraine. All they're doing is revealing themselves as cowards. Real WWII Nazis wouldn't have given a crap.
If a bunch of Taurus missiles destroy the Crimean bridge - assuming that's even possible, and I doubt these guys know, let alone the state of Russian air defense around the bridge - Russia is likely to drop a hypersonic missile with a conventional warhead on the manufacturer's plant if not the German military HQ.
The " manufacturer" for avionics and targeting is MDBA.
Not german.
French...
A merger of French, British and Italian missile manufacturers, which has since taken over German and Spanish ones. Group HQ in France, but has the equivalent of substantial missile manufacturing companies in each country.
Plenty of targets.
So the Germans are diverting the blame to the French? That makes sense. Unfortunately obviously the SVR or GRU already know that. So it won't matter.
France's pro-NATO media propagandists are in an uproar.
For 48 hours and this morning in particular, the Navalny case has been closed.
Everyone is trying to stir up the mud to make the obvious incomprehensible and .... acceptable.
Mens sana in corpore sano
( usually translated as "a healthy mind in a healthy body")
But could there be a few healthy minds in sick bodies?
I think so, or maybe I just hope so (confirmation bias).
*****
For months, the German government has been under unprecedented pressure to send Taurus missiles to Ukraine. (We now know that they can reach Moscow)
https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bundestag-votes-against-taurus-missiles-to-ukraine/live-68334762#liveblog-post-68337645
In the space of a few days,
✓ Scholz has made several interventions (02.26.2024 https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/scholz-taurus-ukraine-102.html )
✓ NATO meeting at the Élysée Palace and a delirious presser by Macron ( 02.26.2024 https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2024/02/27/conference-de-soutien-a-lukraine )
✓ and Vladimir Putin's speech was on Thursday, 29.02.2024
" " " Putin noted that while accusing Russia of plans to attack NATO allies in Europe, Western allies were “selecting targets for striking our territory” and “talking about the possibility of sending a NATO contingent to Ukraine.”
“We remember the fate of those who sent their troop contingents to the territory of our country,” the Russian leader said in an apparent allusion to the failed invasions by Napoleon and Hitler. “Now the consequences for the potential invaders will be far more tragic.” " " "
*****
In one short week, that's a lot!
Especially if we add RT's "revelation" on Friday March 1st of a "conversation" dated 02.19.2024, which makes it possible to understand the succession of speeches mentioned above.
Interception or leak? The 45 minutes long "kind of Skyped conversation" (), i.e. a meeting between senior officers of the German army was in order to consider the possibilities and conditions for using the Taurus against, for example, the Kersch bridge or other targets in Russia.
As are UK-StormShadow and French-Scalp, the Taurus but must be fired from compatible aircraft. The French Mirage 2000 is compatible, and France has now agreed to transfer some to the Ukraine.
And that the final programming, targeting and course requires programming by the supplier country.
The camouflage of direct military intervention behind the manufacturer of the avionics more or less common to these three missiles is a direct implication of France.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA
The manufacturer obviously does not have the intelligence and satellite data to obtain the necessary information.
*****
This " Meeting" sheds particular light on the preceding episodes.
The "leaked conversation" dates from 02.19.2024. No doubt it was immediately interpreted by the Russian army. AndPutin.
This explains his precision when speak of the targeting and the official presence of NATO troops in Ukraine.
It is likely that the Russians immediately made it known to Germany and France, through the appropriate channels, that they had the evidence.
*****
So let's go back in chronological order
February 19: communication intercepted
Feb. 21 to 26: Scholz makes a series of statements confirming his refusal to send Taurus.
Feb.27: meeting at the Élysée Palace and confirmation of "NATO's plan" to send troops to Ukraine
Feb.28: All France's allies reject Macron's idea.
As Victor Hugo write
"Waterloo, morne plaine.
Il attendait Grouchy, c'était Blücher"
{"Waterloo, dull plain.
He expected Grouchy, it was Blücher "}
Feb. 29: speech by V.Putin
March 1: public revelation of the famous "conversation"
*****
This chronology would explain why Scholz threw the French and British under the bus, and why Macron in turn tried to get everyone on board, in order to conceal the fact that he and Boris Johnson and their successors had exceeded their political mandates.
*****
Because Macron is even overstepping France's constitution, and it's (retired) general officers who are making this public.
https://www.place-armes.fr/post/anti-constitutionalit%C3%A9-ill%C3%A9galit%C3%A9-ou-a-l%C3%A9galit%C3%A9
*****
And the Americans are keeping their distance, ready to leave the scene of the crime and hide their responsibility behind "individual ones".
Yes, as in Gaza...
Who and what the "New York Times" on Feb.25 is published for, and confirming the presence of more than 10 CIA bases in Ukraine for at least 10 years. Was Russians aware.
And were they right to turn the chessboard upside down? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
*****
My conclusion(hope) is that "someone" in the West is trying to stop the ticking time bomb. Putin, while protecting his country, is trying to limit the escalation.
It's reminiscent of Dr Strangelove's War Room: no one is immune from a miscommunication, a targeting error, an unfortunate initiative by a pilot, or the hatred or madness of some actor in the chain of command.
Hope and fear...
Especially when I hear all these suckers in France and Germany, journalists and politicians, who after telling us that we shouldn't be afraid of Putin and his army, that his red lines were all crossable, are now telling us that we shouldn't be afraid of a nuclear war.
Yes, remember. The full titke of Stanley Kubrick film is:
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
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Thanks Karl, sorry for my english, not so easy for my french mind...
Do what you want/can with this...
Thanks for providing the timeline; it's very helpful. Agree with your analysis. You could add Putin's meeting with Shoigu on the 20th, then Putin's visit to Kazan where he inspected the new Tu-160Ms on the 21-22nd. Putin met with the Security Council yesterday, with the very short readout saying they initially discussed the nukes in space issue. And facts continue to be made on the ground.
I interpret Macron's silly oration as a bid to establish French leadership when the Uited States goes home-as looks increasingly likely. So far as Germany is concerned Macron is reminding us that France enjoyed 'victor' status in 1945 and is therefore not hobbled by the treaties binding the Bundesrepublik, just as it hosts no US bases with tens of thousands of soldiers, as Germany does.
Germany is France's last remaining rival in Europe, now that the UK has left and poor old Macron is desperate for anything that will make him look like a bringer of 'la gloire.' After all at everything else he has failed miserably.
France competing with Germany? In the dreams of our Napoleon perhaps....
France is out of the game in every respect. Starting with its finances, 3,000 billion in debt, 110% of a totally distorted GDP.
And now unable to manufacture its own weapons without German and American licenses.
Escobar seems to share that POV. IMO, it's not Macron but those pulling his strings.
This conversation, if real, is at such an elementary level of planning that either the German military is largely uninvolved in the operations in Ukraine or it consists of poseurs and political appointees.
IMO, what's revealed is the hubris of the planners. Obviously, the conference call lacked proper security and was intercepted by Russia. Despite the fact that all agreed the missile would probably not destroy the bridge or make any difference in the conflict, the scheming went ahead as the assumption was they'd be ordered to do so after the vote approving Taurus's use.
One major outcome will be the hardening of the Russian public and military now that NATO involvement is 100% proven. I wonder if this SNAFU will cause an acceleration in the plots to turn Moldova and/or Armenia into the next Ukraine or modify the Russian General Staff's plans? And as I mentioned in reply to another comment, there was the "Freudian Slip" by the Outlaw US Empire's "Defense" Secretary noted by Lavrov that NATO will take over once Ukraine is pulverized.
Don't know if you know, but there's a rally tomorrow at 1 PM in Portland concerning Palestine. I'll either be with the Vets or with DSA.
Thanks for that FYI.
Fascinating and riveting read.
One would think that some exercises are necessary after missile rails have been configured to launch dummy missiles. That might be noticeable as well as movement of bodies from and to certain locations.
Stinkers.
Vengeance weapons. Imagine that.
Thanks Karl for doing the work on this - a fascinating and revealing conversation
Yes, quite revelatory. Will it change anything though?
The whole "Macrony" team and all the media propagandists are "debout sur les rames"
(standing on the oars ¿)
Scholz revealed all, they are stuned
Scholz revealed the essential because he knew the discussion was going to be public.
And now they go "Saving Private Ryan"
They all confirm the technical information, namely that all these French and British missiles are fired with the active participation of targeting, maintenance and programming teams....
The French government has just
In the space of a few days admited that we have "some" helper in Ukraine, announced that he authorized special forces to intervene in Ukraine "but without participating in combat", an oratorical precaution because we will soon recognize that French soldiers are dying in Ukraine. Russia will target them specifically and has likely already established identities and assignments
The last line of defense is to explain that this does not make us more belligerent than when the USSR supplied arms to the Vietnamese.
It is an extraordinary line of defense which should not be understood in the same way in Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
French soldiers have already died in Ukraine.
Yes, Karl.
But as you know, not as " french army soldiers" but humanitarian, or contractors....
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Apologize.
Not easy, sometime lost in translations
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Macron
"Il n'y a pas de consensus pour envoyer de manière officielle assumée des troupes au sol."
OFFICIELLE & ASSUMÉE
"There is no consensus to officially send ground troops and take responsability." ( translate it please in correct language)
1/ Of course, for this to happen, Macron needs the agreement of the French National Assembly. He may succeed, but the debate will already be stormy, and will reveal the economic and social consequences for the French.
2/ The revelation (by Scholz) of the involvement of French troops for "maintenance" and targeting is already being criticized on legal grounds by an association of former general officers.
https://www.place-armes.fr/post/anti-constitutionalit%C3%A9-ill%C3%A9galit%C3%A9-ou-a-l%C3%A9galit%C3%A9
3/ Of course, an official, assumed presence means official, assumed funerals, public ceremonies and media coverage.
4/ But war is not a one-way street. French soldiers, directly or collaterally, will be involved in the deaths of Russian soldiers and even civilians.
And France will have to officially take responsibility.
How should Russia react?
It's a paradigm shift.
Not dead bodies, dead Country.
Yes it already has - the increasing flow of leaks revelations desperations confusions and cross purposes in house fighting not to say sheer incompetence...
... is indication enough about how this war is being lost on one side and won on the other and is a significant measure of progress
Everyone knew the yanks were tapped in to every conversation: no one 'thought' about the Russians, now it is known they too are tapped in
Russian Sigint/EW has always been tops, and NATO op/sec has always been poor.
Thanks Karl. Such insightful comments too.
If Gerhartz and Graefe last any longer than the next 48 hours then one can assume the German Parliament is utterly powerless given that it voted 3:1 against further armaments. Time will tell.
Interestingly, it does appear that some cracks are showing in the nato shithole as we have German commanders confidently scheming for British support to hatch their plot to bomb Russia if the German Ministry is incapable of making a decision that suits their timeframe.
What an excellent phone conversation and clearly indicates the absolute 'brilliant' technology the westies use. Stalin is likely chuckling in his lair "I've heard it all before so pour me another drink as it could get interesting now". Take a bow Vladimir, your team is still top of its game.
We've heard and seen it all before:
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (known simply and more commonly as Dr. Strangelove) is a 1964 political satire black comedy film directed, co-written, and produced by Stanley Kubrick and starring Peter Sellers in three roles, including the title character.
Do you think German Generals like being occupied by Anglo-American forces? Do you think German Generals discuss terrorist attacks on Russia on unsecured phone lines? The entire episode sounds like German Generals creating a situation to indirectly prevent Germany from crossing Russian red lines.
that is a positive spin on this... i would like it for you to be right..
How do we know it was an unsecured phone line? It was a conference call and Russia may have the ability to intercept "secured" lines. And remember, a 'secure' line is only so until it isn't.
everyone says the ynks tap every phone conversation in germany...why should the Russians abstain