Lavrov delivers a short but timely address to the participants of the International Scientific and Practical Forum No Statute of Limitations being held in Kaliningrad. Timely because there are currently two very vivid demonstrations of the crimes Nazis were convicted for at Nuremburg that are now occurring in Ukraine and Occupied Palestine—Genocide specifically and Crimes Against Humanity generally. A remark Lavrov made yesterday was noted by MoA commentator jayc that adds a bit of context to Lavrov’s address:
thanks karl... lavrov is a brilliant speaker and statesmen... putin and lavrov are like a serious 1 2 punch that the western msm has to ignore.. if people read what they actually said, there would be a lot more outrage in the western societies..
I like that james: I'm promoting "outrage." Today I discussed Russia's promotion of sport as a way to promote national wellness given the problems presented by disease of all sorts, diabetes, heart disease and cancer specifically. As with life-long learning, promotes the intellect, life-long sport promotes health--policies that don't cost much that reap great benefits for the individual and the state.
FJB and Blinky are human garbage. Putin and Lavrov are giants of intellect. Vlademir Vlademerovich Putin is the greatest national leader on Earth and Sergei Lavrov is the greatest diplomat.
You are making the arguments of a Nazi apologist. These are not random ruminations but reactionary talking points.
In particular your blithe statement that the Russians 'murdered millions in the 1920s and 30s is a lie. There is no evidence of this at all. It is a claim, originally made by Goebbels, based on half truths and misrepresentations of the kind to be seen in the "Holodomor" myth and the treatments of "The Great Terror" by anti-communist propagandists., such as Conquest, Snyder and Applebaum.
This is no place to discuss the question in detail but it may be helpful for people to understand that the figures of those arrested, those charged, those convicted, those sentenced to prison terms from which they returned into society, are commonly aggregated by propagandists as a total of people 'murdered.' In fact far from all of those arrested were convicted, most of the convicted were sentenced to exile and/or labour camp and the majority of them survived (even during the war when rations throughout society were small). It might be helpful to bear in mind that Capital Punishment even under the Tsars was reserved for only a small number of crimes. In the Soviet Union it was rarely used.
As to charges of torture in US run detention centres- it would be surprising if this were not the case. The US is notorious for its mistreatment of prisoners- in fact the Nazis modelled their own system on that in the US, particularly the 'redeemed' South, which they admired.
Is there evidence that the Soviet Union mistreated German prisoners? Almost certainly- the treatment of Soviet and Communist prisoners by the Nazis was appalling- but it was no part of the Soviet doctrine which was based on socialist views of crime and punishment. One thing we do know: in the Red Army occupied East of Germany the population was much better treated, fed and housed, in tghe iummediate post war period, than it was in the western sectors.
As to the idiocy of blaming the Russians for failing to produce a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine- it really sums up the entire screed, for its blatant special pleading and misrepresentation.
The world knows that Russia worked long and hard to produce the Minsk accords. It also knows that these were deliberately sabotaged by the Ukrainian government acting at the behest of the US in order that it could bring about a war. Every one of the dead on both sides is attributable to the US government. And the US government, to give it credit, has been quite open in its responsibility for the war, the casualties and the damage done- 'to weaken Russia.'
As is often the csse with imperialist apologists, the poster simply goes too far: he repeats the conventional propaganda of the Cold War era but then he makes the error of adding to it equally mendacious, but much better understood, claims against the current Russian government. Almost everyone here knows better. And now all will understand that the lies of the present are all of a piece with the propaganda fed to them with their mothers' milk.
thanks bevin.. one of the main writers at unz was accused of the same as memory serves and i noticed RR left a link to an unz article.. is it the same person? i seem to recall you pointing this out before? revisionist history is what you probably called it then too..
I am sorry if the murder of millions in soviet Russia seems like a 'lie' to you, but there are many who have stated this for decades now; some say over sixty million, others much lower, but I don't think I've ever heard of less than several millions. One million would be bad enough, no?!
I am aware there have been some recent revisions of this, but at the time the Nuremberg trials took place, many in Russia and throughout Europe believed that millions had been murdered. I think rather than calling what I said a 'lie' and getting your knickers in a twist about it, just point out that there are disputes. Also, it is quite possible the recent revisions are a tad self-serving. It's been known to happen.
Yes, I have read Bacques theories about German prisoners starved to death, and corresponded with him a little about it. I believe he is largely right. Making the Americans hypocrites too, as were the British.
So: how many do you think died in the Red Terror and then the Stalinist purges? Or do you believe they never happened at all, that it is all made up? I guess you believe that Solzhenitsyn is a complete and utter liar as well. You might be right, but as a reasonable man you must admit that there will be many who do not share your view, I being one of them. I'll take his word over yours any day. (Someone who goes around boorishly and pompously accusing others of ill will and lying is generally not all that reliable in my experience.)
Also, would it be your opinion that the three million women the Russians raped or murdered or both from 1945-1948 is another lie told by Goebbels? Oh wait, he was already dead...
Finally: pointing out that the Nazis were not the only ones who committed war crimes is not being a Nazi apologist but insisting that only they were evil and that one or more of Russia, America and Britain were pure as driven snow is hypocrisy which stinks to high heaven.
Yes (which I did explain to karlof when he started the substack). The night I registered to comment on MoA a VERY large, VERY black scorpion appeared out of nowhere walking towards me across the living room floor. Very scary! (About a week later I woke up after a nap on the sofa to find a VERY large VERY hairy tarantula slowly making its way along the ceiling to end up right over my head! Woke up fast!!)
Anyway, I picked it as a name not knowing I would end up participating at MoA so often. And now am stuck with it over there! Random Rumination is the title of my obscure little substack but it appears in these comments as a name.
This post is comprehensive and brilliant. It's an outstanding piece of work. My hat's off to you.
The Neocon Nazis, Neolib Nazis, Femi-Nazis and Zio-Nazis who control the government of the USA have turned my country into the world's foremost terrorist state. The leaders of the EU and NATO nations are of the same ilk. The Anglo-Zionist Empire of Lies and Hate must be crushed. NATO like Zelenski and Ukraine is a dead man walking. NATO is a Suicide Pill for the World and must be crushed and flushed. This is de-Nazification.
One man's war crime is another's legimate and legal methods. The victor gets to decide which. Clearly some people don't think they will lose and have to account for any sins.
Unfortunately, there's some credence within your remark that Humanity needs to move beyond. IMO, that will become possible once the last of the Plundering nations and regimes are neutered. When that point will arrive is clearly the big question. But while waiting, the Global Majority can create an example by rising above the Plundering Past by establishing the Shared Future.
I admire your optimism but don't share it. Human nature and realpolitik being what it is, I'd argue that once the old bully has been dealt with, a new one or gang will arise. Even if "they" start off meaning well, power corrupts. But let's hope you are right and I am being too cynical.
I know well the ease of being cynical, but IMO it serves no useful purpose, while being optimistic does. I suppose Lavrov's outlook did a lot to change my POV. I don't know if you're familiar with the characters from the "Winnie the Pooh" stories, but I see many having the outlook of Eeyore, who was deeply cynical about most everything but do nothing to try and alter the situation.
Keep up your sterling work highlighting the moral and intellectual vacuum that defines much of the international political elite and their praetorian press pack. Just to add my two pennieth to the Random apologist's usual spam.
Le Monde provided excuses for an overt support of Nazism in the 21st century. The first paragraph stated:
"As it has every year since 2012, on Friday, November 4, the Russian Federation submitted a draft resolution before the United Nations (UN) General Assembly against the glorification of Nazism, urging vigilance against modern forms of xenophobia and reinstatement of the Third Reich."
The actual vote of those nations AGAINST CONDEMNATION of modern forms of xenophobia etc... was as follows:
USA, UK, UKR, SWE, SPN, SLOVENIA, SLOVAKIA, SAN MORENIA, ROMANIA, MOLDOVA, POR, POL, PAP NG, NOR, N. MAC, NZ, NL, Montonegro, Monaco, Micronesia, Marshal Isl, Malta, Mali, LUX, Lithuania, Leichtenstein, Liberia, Latvia, Kiribati, JPN, Italy, Ireland, Iceland, Hungary, Greece, GERMANY, Georgia, France, Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Czechia, Cyprus, Canada,Bulgaria, Bosnia Herz., Belgium, Austria, Australia, Andorra, Albania.
Le Monde then stated:
"Each year, this resolution is endorsed by a large majority. It was adopted on December 16, 2021, by 130 votes for, 2 against (United States and Ukraine) and 49 abstentions."
It apparently took immense pride in the fact that France "...had always abstained" in past votes!
"...would it be your opinion that the three million women either raped or murdered or both in Germany from 1945-1948 is another lie .."
Given that the figure doesn't come from Goebbels where on earth would it come from? And would it include the victims of British American, Canadian and French rapists? The idea that the Red Army was undisciplined whereas the Americans and British were Angels of Mercy is a nonsense.
What I do know is that every Nazi I ever meet soon tells me that the Red Army raped half the women in Germany.
Random Ruminations, to be quite clear, is aka Scorpion. A nice enough fellow provided you don't let him talk about the Soviet Union or the war or politics...
I have just posted this at MoA. I hsate to take up space here but it does put the Random Ruminations in better perspective.
The key to neo-Nazi propaganda is the recognition by apologists for Hitler (and Buchanan has long been one of them) that it is crucial to equate the Nazis with the Soviet Union.
It's an old story and it really took hold in the period after China's revolution-in McCarthy speak when "China was lost. It's then that the intellectual climate of the 'west' was reversed.
In order to preserve the Empire in one form or another the demonisation of communists was necessary.
There was nothing new about that-it was a reversion to the post 1917 pre 1941 dominant ideas. What was new was the ruthlessness with which the doctrine of "Totalitarianism" or Nazis=Communists was imposed, particularly in the US where a purge of all elements-in the Academy, in the media, in the Unions, in politics- was carried out. And history was re-written.
(As an aside an anecdote about the Rosenbergs who weee executed after being found guilty of treason on trumped up charges. Before they were executed they were approached by government agents who offered them clemency provided that they would agree to a statement condemining the Soviet Union as anti-semitic. It says a lot about them both that they declined the offer.)
That trope-Stalin as anti-semite- was a small but important part of the burgeoning ideology: like Hitler and the Nazis, Stalin and the Communists were anti-semitic.
It's a long story but the important thing is to bear in mind that by creating the idea that in every respect Communism was as bad as Naziism, it became possible not only to massacre communists wherever discovered, but to extend the anticommunist campaign to anti-imperialists in the colonies (there go Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh and, eventually Nelson Mandela) and also to broaden it to include socialists, national liberationists (sundry massacres such as that of the north Africans in Paris killed and thrown into the Seine) and, most of all peasants struggling against land'owners' in places like Guatemala or Colombia for the sort of land reform that the US occupation authorities had enacted, reflexively, in Japan and south Korea in the knowledge that without it the masses were liable to turn left. As they did in Vietnam for example.
From the imperialists point of view, the propaganda served its purpose, the views of Unz, Scorpion and Nemesis are simply logical deductions from the propaganda: if Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions (why not billions?) of people then Hitler wasn't so bad, particularly because most of his victims were either communists or Russians (minions of Stalin) or Jews who, according to the old libel, are Bolsheviks anyway. In fact, they work out for themselves Hitler was a good guy, saving us all time. Fighting communism (responsible for most of the killings that have ever occured), the victim of wartime propaganda put about by communists and of course those who 'go to church on Saturday." And they honestly believe that they did all the intellectual 'heavy liufting' for themselves and in the face of a left dominated intellectual climate.
It is an interesting circumstance that, with the exception of the few who cannot help themselves from whoring their pens and tongues, most of the intellectuals who established themselves before 1950 in the anglophone world never succumbed to the 'Stalin is Satan and the Soviet Union a graveyard of good men' propaganda. It is very much a badge of the post 1950 generation of intellectuals that they are virulent anti-communists, contemptuous of democracy and subvert social reform. From them came the neo-liberalism, in which thoroughly discredited people like von Hayek were rescued from obscurity, the Karl Poppers of this world thrived etc.
The reality, as was generally accepted before the Cold War orthodoxy was enforced, is that Communism and Fascism were (just as they claimed to be) polar opposites and that what the Empire was doing in its ideology of anti-communism was picking up the baton that the Wehrmacht and the SS had dropped on the Eastern Front.
I am not an apologist for Hitler. You are all over the place with your commentary. I did however, make the point that the Nuremberg trials were a travesty of justice. I cited a Judge who served in that trial. I rest my case!!
I humbly suggest to Karlof to delete all these inflammatory posts. Clearly some people still - 70 years later - cannot handle nuanced discussion without getting inflamed. Apologies. It didn't occur to me that pointing out the the Nuremberg trials were a travesty of justice would be regarded as over the top. Of course there are some who may be unaware of it, but they can read the quotes I provided from the article cited and judge for themselves. No big deal.
I just wish world leaders like Lavrov would stop going back to the WW II well with all its many distortions to explain what is going on today. At least not those damn show trials after the war!!
That many evil things were done by the Nazis during WW II is axiomatic, however it is no less axiomatic that similar evils were perpetrated by the Nazis' adversaries, including Americans, British and Russian. To hold up the Nuremberg trials in any argument as Lavrov self-righteously does is unfortunate and hypocritical. Far better for all parties involved to leave that period behind and refer to it as little as possible.
For example:
"Some of the Americans who participated in the Nuremberg trials became disillusioned with the entire business. One of the few to make public his feelings was Charles F. Wennerstrum, an Iowa Supreme Court justice who served as presiding judge in the Nuremberg trial of German generals. “If I had known seven months ago what I know today, I would never have come here,” he declared immediately after sentences were pronounced. “The high ideals announced as the motives for creating these tribunals have not been evident,” he added.[12]
Wennerstrum cautiously referred to the extensive Jewish involvement in the Nuremberg process. “The entire atmosphere here is unwholesome … Lawyers, clerks, interpreters and researchers were employed who became Americans only in recent years, whose backgrounds were imbedded in Europe’s hatreds and prejudices.” He criticized the one-sided handling of evidence. “Most of the evidence in the trials was documentary, selected from the large tonnage of captured records. The selection was made by the prosecution. The defense had access only to those documents which the prosecution considered material to the case.” He concluded that “the trials were to have convinced the Germans of the guilt of their leaders. They convinced the Germans merely that their leaders lost the war to tough conquerors.” Wennerstrum left Nuremberg “with a feeling that justice has been denied.” "
.... elsewhere in the same article:
"Reports of widespread torture at the postwar American-run “war crimes” trials at Dachau leaked out, resulting in so many protests that a formal investigation was eventually carried out. A US Army Commission of inquiry consisting of Pennsylvania Judge Edward van Roden and Texas Supreme Court Judge Gordon Simpson officially confirmed the charges of gross abuse. German defendants, they found, were routinely tortured at Dachau with savage beatings, burning matches under fingernails, kicking of testicles, months of solitary confinement, and threats of family reprisals. Low ranking prisoners were assured that their “confessions” would be used only against their former superiors in the dock. Later, though, these hapless men found their own “confessions” used against them when they were tried in turn. High ranking defendants were cynically assured that by “voluntarily” accepting all responsibility themselves they would thereby protect their former subordinates from prosecution.[85]
One Dachau trial court reporter was so outraged at what was happening there in the name of justice that he quit his job. He testified to a US Senate subcommittee that the “most brutal” interrogators had been three German-born Jews. Although operating procedures at the Dachau trials were significantly worse than those used at Nuremberg, they give some idea of the spirit of the “justice” imposed on the vanquished Germans."
I read in other reports that all the defendants at Nuremberg had their testicles crushed so badly, and on nearly a daily basis along with other tortures, as to be no longer functional, moreover most of the interrogators were German Jews with intense animus. Also English Jews tortured Hoss for several days without respite until he signed the confession written in English, a language he neither spoke nor could read, and which became the centerpiece evidence of the whole Auschwitz tale for which no other concrete evidence was required other than often conflicting eyewitness testimonies without cross examination nearly all of which have since been confirmed false by Yad Vashem historians.
Not to mention that course the Russians were masters of show trials during the 20's and 30's, along with being experienced at murdering millions, some of which was ongoing whilst the trials were taking place. Two wrongs do not make a right. Indeed, the Nuremberg trials erased any moral superiority the Allies might have had by virtue of achieving victory. I cannot stomach the otherwise estimable Lavrov lecturing from on high using the twisted data and verdicts from Russian-led show trials to bolster his points. Especially since his government recently presided over the deaths of almost half a million mainly Russian-speaking Slavs. Not a good look given he and his leader lacked the diplomatic skills to avoid such a bloodbath.
you raise many disturbing questions and views here... i appreciate you raising them.. i am hopeful karl has more knowledge on this then i do.. i have basically none.. thanks..
Thank you, James. I know far less than karlof1, but I have knocked around revisionist history off and on the past few decades. I think part of the problem - and we see it in both Ukraine and Israel - is one side blaming the other whilst painting them as monsters is never better than partially justified and never does either side any real good - apart from providing favorable propaganda for the home team. The Ukraine crisis, though it has multi-century tangled roots, basically developed steadily since the US-backed coup in 2014. Eight years until the SMO started, during which time the Russians were unable to prevent what has now resulted in the deaths of about a half a million Russian speakers - their own people. Similarly in Israel they were involved in its creation - going against the votes of the Arab nations in the region who did not approve - and have basically enabled this catastrophe without, though they say all the right things now, being able to fix the injustice which they helped perpetrate. Lecturing the world about how bad the US Empire is, though justified, does no good for anybody on the ground, hundreds of whom are dying every day, just as in Ukraine.
I think ordinary folks should be critical about all world leaders on all sides. They don't have a great track record.
Random I make a point to carefully read your comments that interest me. My comment was meant for general discussion on the posted topic, cheers.
"A two state solution today is no longer a viable solution. Attempting to sell the idea is akin to a used car salesmen. Israel is a illegal militant state with its power base in the US Congress. Untill those dynamics change radically there can be no peace."
Any comments or reading suggestions are willfully excepted, thanks in advance.
thanks.. i was asked a few days ago what my solution for israel-palestine was and i said - get the usa out of israel... simple idea, but all this will have to be worked out in a much more complicated way then the simplicity of my statement.. i agree with you - ordinary folks need to be more critical about all the news information they receive and question whether they are getting a complete view on any or at least both sides of it.. generally we/they are not.. on that topic - here is my favourite link-article from today that i encourage others to read..
thanks karl... lavrov is a brilliant speaker and statesmen... putin and lavrov are like a serious 1 2 punch that the western msm has to ignore.. if people read what they actually said, there would be a lot more outrage in the western societies..
I like that james: I'm promoting "outrage." Today I discussed Russia's promotion of sport as a way to promote national wellness given the problems presented by disease of all sorts, diabetes, heart disease and cancer specifically. As with life-long learning, promotes the intellect, life-long sport promotes health--policies that don't cost much that reap great benefits for the individual and the state.
the essential nation = couch potatoes
when the chips are down, turn the dial and get another beer
Putin & Lavrov vs. Biden & Blinken.
Is there any question why the majority of the world is supportive of the former and is horrified by the latter?
We are able to see why, but we must get others to see why as well. That's our task.
FJB and Blinky are human garbage. Putin and Lavrov are giants of intellect. Vlademir Vlademerovich Putin is the greatest national leader on Earth and Sergei Lavrov is the greatest diplomat.
You are making the arguments of a Nazi apologist. These are not random ruminations but reactionary talking points.
In particular your blithe statement that the Russians 'murdered millions in the 1920s and 30s is a lie. There is no evidence of this at all. It is a claim, originally made by Goebbels, based on half truths and misrepresentations of the kind to be seen in the "Holodomor" myth and the treatments of "The Great Terror" by anti-communist propagandists., such as Conquest, Snyder and Applebaum.
This is no place to discuss the question in detail but it may be helpful for people to understand that the figures of those arrested, those charged, those convicted, those sentenced to prison terms from which they returned into society, are commonly aggregated by propagandists as a total of people 'murdered.' In fact far from all of those arrested were convicted, most of the convicted were sentenced to exile and/or labour camp and the majority of them survived (even during the war when rations throughout society were small). It might be helpful to bear in mind that Capital Punishment even under the Tsars was reserved for only a small number of crimes. In the Soviet Union it was rarely used.
As to charges of torture in US run detention centres- it would be surprising if this were not the case. The US is notorious for its mistreatment of prisoners- in fact the Nazis modelled their own system on that in the US, particularly the 'redeemed' South, which they admired.
Is there evidence that the Soviet Union mistreated German prisoners? Almost certainly- the treatment of Soviet and Communist prisoners by the Nazis was appalling- but it was no part of the Soviet doctrine which was based on socialist views of crime and punishment. One thing we do know: in the Red Army occupied East of Germany the population was much better treated, fed and housed, in tghe iummediate post war period, than it was in the western sectors.
As to the idiocy of blaming the Russians for failing to produce a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine- it really sums up the entire screed, for its blatant special pleading and misrepresentation.
The world knows that Russia worked long and hard to produce the Minsk accords. It also knows that these were deliberately sabotaged by the Ukrainian government acting at the behest of the US in order that it could bring about a war. Every one of the dead on both sides is attributable to the US government. And the US government, to give it credit, has been quite open in its responsibility for the war, the casualties and the damage done- 'to weaken Russia.'
As is often the csse with imperialist apologists, the poster simply goes too far: he repeats the conventional propaganda of the Cold War era but then he makes the error of adding to it equally mendacious, but much better understood, claims against the current Russian government. Almost everyone here knows better. And now all will understand that the lies of the present are all of a piece with the propaganda fed to them with their mothers' milk.
thanks bevin.. one of the main writers at unz was accused of the same as memory serves and i noticed RR left a link to an unz article.. is it the same person? i seem to recall you pointing this out before? revisionist history is what you probably called it then too..
I am sorry if the murder of millions in soviet Russia seems like a 'lie' to you, but there are many who have stated this for decades now; some say over sixty million, others much lower, but I don't think I've ever heard of less than several millions. One million would be bad enough, no?!
I am aware there have been some recent revisions of this, but at the time the Nuremberg trials took place, many in Russia and throughout Europe believed that millions had been murdered. I think rather than calling what I said a 'lie' and getting your knickers in a twist about it, just point out that there are disputes. Also, it is quite possible the recent revisions are a tad self-serving. It's been known to happen.
Yes, I have read Bacques theories about German prisoners starved to death, and corresponded with him a little about it. I believe he is largely right. Making the Americans hypocrites too, as were the British.
So: how many do you think died in the Red Terror and then the Stalinist purges? Or do you believe they never happened at all, that it is all made up? I guess you believe that Solzhenitsyn is a complete and utter liar as well. You might be right, but as a reasonable man you must admit that there will be many who do not share your view, I being one of them. I'll take his word over yours any day. (Someone who goes around boorishly and pompously accusing others of ill will and lying is generally not all that reliable in my experience.)
Also, would it be your opinion that the three million women the Russians raped or murdered or both from 1945-1948 is another lie told by Goebbels? Oh wait, he was already dead...
Finally: pointing out that the Nazis were not the only ones who committed war crimes is not being a Nazi apologist but insisting that only they were evil and that one or more of Russia, America and Britain were pure as driven snow is hypocrisy which stinks to high heaven.
You're Scorpion on MOA but Random Ruminations here on Karl's substack yah?
Yes (which I did explain to karlof when he started the substack). The night I registered to comment on MoA a VERY large, VERY black scorpion appeared out of nowhere walking towards me across the living room floor. Very scary! (About a week later I woke up after a nap on the sofa to find a VERY large VERY hairy tarantula slowly making its way along the ceiling to end up right over my head! Woke up fast!!)
Anyway, I picked it as a name not knowing I would end up participating at MoA so often. And now am stuck with it over there! Random Rumination is the title of my obscure little substack but it appears in these comments as a name.
Thanks for sharing Lavrov's important words.
This post is comprehensive and brilliant. It's an outstanding piece of work. My hat's off to you.
The Neocon Nazis, Neolib Nazis, Femi-Nazis and Zio-Nazis who control the government of the USA have turned my country into the world's foremost terrorist state. The leaders of the EU and NATO nations are of the same ilk. The Anglo-Zionist Empire of Lies and Hate must be crushed. NATO like Zelenski and Ukraine is a dead man walking. NATO is a Suicide Pill for the World and must be crushed and flushed. This is de-Nazification.
I came across "Now we are six" when sorting out my bookshelf earlier today. Maybe we need "Now we are 60"!!! Bah humbug!! ;-)
One man's war crime is another's legimate and legal methods. The victor gets to decide which. Clearly some people don't think they will lose and have to account for any sins.
Unfortunately, there's some credence within your remark that Humanity needs to move beyond. IMO, that will become possible once the last of the Plundering nations and regimes are neutered. When that point will arrive is clearly the big question. But while waiting, the Global Majority can create an example by rising above the Plundering Past by establishing the Shared Future.
I admire your optimism but don't share it. Human nature and realpolitik being what it is, I'd argue that once the old bully has been dealt with, a new one or gang will arise. Even if "they" start off meaning well, power corrupts. But let's hope you are right and I am being too cynical.
I know well the ease of being cynical, but IMO it serves no useful purpose, while being optimistic does. I suppose Lavrov's outlook did a lot to change my POV. I don't know if you're familiar with the characters from the "Winnie the Pooh" stories, but I see many having the outlook of Eeyore, who was deeply cynical about most everything but do nothing to try and alter the situation.
Keep up your sterling work highlighting the moral and intellectual vacuum that defines much of the international political elite and their praetorian press pack. Just to add my two pennieth to the Random apologist's usual spam.
Le Monde provided excuses for an overt support of Nazism in the 21st century. The first paragraph stated:
"As it has every year since 2012, on Friday, November 4, the Russian Federation submitted a draft resolution before the United Nations (UN) General Assembly against the glorification of Nazism, urging vigilance against modern forms of xenophobia and reinstatement of the Third Reich."
The actual vote of those nations AGAINST CONDEMNATION of modern forms of xenophobia etc... was as follows:
USA, UK, UKR, SWE, SPN, SLOVENIA, SLOVAKIA, SAN MORENIA, ROMANIA, MOLDOVA, POR, POL, PAP NG, NOR, N. MAC, NZ, NL, Montonegro, Monaco, Micronesia, Marshal Isl, Malta, Mali, LUX, Lithuania, Leichtenstein, Liberia, Latvia, Kiribati, JPN, Italy, Ireland, Iceland, Hungary, Greece, GERMANY, Georgia, France, Finland, Estonia, Denmark, Czechia, Cyprus, Canada,Bulgaria, Bosnia Herz., Belgium, Austria, Australia, Andorra, Albania.
Le Monde then stated:
"Each year, this resolution is endorsed by a large majority. It was adopted on December 16, 2021, by 130 votes for, 2 against (United States and Ukraine) and 49 abstentions."
It apparently took immense pride in the fact that France "...had always abstained" in past votes!
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2022/11/09/why-france-and-51-other-countries-voted-against-the-un-resolution-condemning-nazism_6003471_8.html#
Nuff said.
"...would it be your opinion that the three million women either raped or murdered or both in Germany from 1945-1948 is another lie .."
Given that the figure doesn't come from Goebbels where on earth would it come from? And would it include the victims of British American, Canadian and French rapists? The idea that the Red Army was undisciplined whereas the Americans and British were Angels of Mercy is a nonsense.
What I do know is that every Nazi I ever meet soon tells me that the Red Army raped half the women in Germany.
Random Ruminations, to be quite clear, is aka Scorpion. A nice enough fellow provided you don't let him talk about the Soviet Union or the war or politics...
I have just posted this at MoA. I hsate to take up space here but it does put the Random Ruminations in better perspective.
The key to neo-Nazi propaganda is the recognition by apologists for Hitler (and Buchanan has long been one of them) that it is crucial to equate the Nazis with the Soviet Union.
It's an old story and it really took hold in the period after China's revolution-in McCarthy speak when "China was lost. It's then that the intellectual climate of the 'west' was reversed.
In order to preserve the Empire in one form or another the demonisation of communists was necessary.
There was nothing new about that-it was a reversion to the post 1917 pre 1941 dominant ideas. What was new was the ruthlessness with which the doctrine of "Totalitarianism" or Nazis=Communists was imposed, particularly in the US where a purge of all elements-in the Academy, in the media, in the Unions, in politics- was carried out. And history was re-written.
(As an aside an anecdote about the Rosenbergs who weee executed after being found guilty of treason on trumped up charges. Before they were executed they were approached by government agents who offered them clemency provided that they would agree to a statement condemining the Soviet Union as anti-semitic. It says a lot about them both that they declined the offer.)
That trope-Stalin as anti-semite- was a small but important part of the burgeoning ideology: like Hitler and the Nazis, Stalin and the Communists were anti-semitic.
It's a long story but the important thing is to bear in mind that by creating the idea that in every respect Communism was as bad as Naziism, it became possible not only to massacre communists wherever discovered, but to extend the anticommunist campaign to anti-imperialists in the colonies (there go Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh and, eventually Nelson Mandela) and also to broaden it to include socialists, national liberationists (sundry massacres such as that of the north Africans in Paris killed and thrown into the Seine) and, most of all peasants struggling against land'owners' in places like Guatemala or Colombia for the sort of land reform that the US occupation authorities had enacted, reflexively, in Japan and south Korea in the knowledge that without it the masses were liable to turn left. As they did in Vietnam for example.
From the imperialists point of view, the propaganda served its purpose, the views of Unz, Scorpion and Nemesis are simply logical deductions from the propaganda: if Stalin was responsible for the deaths of millions (why not billions?) of people then Hitler wasn't so bad, particularly because most of his victims were either communists or Russians (minions of Stalin) or Jews who, according to the old libel, are Bolsheviks anyway. In fact, they work out for themselves Hitler was a good guy, saving us all time. Fighting communism (responsible for most of the killings that have ever occured), the victim of wartime propaganda put about by communists and of course those who 'go to church on Saturday." And they honestly believe that they did all the intellectual 'heavy liufting' for themselves and in the face of a left dominated intellectual climate.
It is an interesting circumstance that, with the exception of the few who cannot help themselves from whoring their pens and tongues, most of the intellectuals who established themselves before 1950 in the anglophone world never succumbed to the 'Stalin is Satan and the Soviet Union a graveyard of good men' propaganda. It is very much a badge of the post 1950 generation of intellectuals that they are virulent anti-communists, contemptuous of democracy and subvert social reform. From them came the neo-liberalism, in which thoroughly discredited people like von Hayek were rescued from obscurity, the Karl Poppers of this world thrived etc.
The reality, as was generally accepted before the Cold War orthodoxy was enforced, is that Communism and Fascism were (just as they claimed to be) polar opposites and that what the Empire was doing in its ideology of anti-communism was picking up the baton that the Wehrmacht and the SS had dropped on the Eastern Front.
I am not an apologist for Hitler. You are all over the place with your commentary. I did however, make the point that the Nuremberg trials were a travesty of justice. I cited a Judge who served in that trial. I rest my case!!
I humbly suggest to Karlof to delete all these inflammatory posts. Clearly some people still - 70 years later - cannot handle nuanced discussion without getting inflamed. Apologies. It didn't occur to me that pointing out the the Nuremberg trials were a travesty of justice would be regarded as over the top. Of course there are some who may be unaware of it, but they can read the quotes I provided from the article cited and judge for themselves. No big deal.
I just wish world leaders like Lavrov would stop going back to the WW II well with all its many distortions to explain what is going on today. At least not those damn show trials after the war!!
That many evil things were done by the Nazis during WW II is axiomatic, however it is no less axiomatic that similar evils were perpetrated by the Nazis' adversaries, including Americans, British and Russian. To hold up the Nuremberg trials in any argument as Lavrov self-righteously does is unfortunate and hypocritical. Far better for all parties involved to leave that period behind and refer to it as little as possible.
For example:
"Some of the Americans who participated in the Nuremberg trials became disillusioned with the entire business. One of the few to make public his feelings was Charles F. Wennerstrum, an Iowa Supreme Court justice who served as presiding judge in the Nuremberg trial of German generals. “If I had known seven months ago what I know today, I would never have come here,” he declared immediately after sentences were pronounced. “The high ideals announced as the motives for creating these tribunals have not been evident,” he added.[12]
Wennerstrum cautiously referred to the extensive Jewish involvement in the Nuremberg process. “The entire atmosphere here is unwholesome … Lawyers, clerks, interpreters and researchers were employed who became Americans only in recent years, whose backgrounds were imbedded in Europe’s hatreds and prejudices.” He criticized the one-sided handling of evidence. “Most of the evidence in the trials was documentary, selected from the large tonnage of captured records. The selection was made by the prosecution. The defense had access only to those documents which the prosecution considered material to the case.” He concluded that “the trials were to have convinced the Germans of the guilt of their leaders. They convinced the Germans merely that their leaders lost the war to tough conquerors.” Wennerstrum left Nuremberg “with a feeling that justice has been denied.” "
.... elsewhere in the same article:
"Reports of widespread torture at the postwar American-run “war crimes” trials at Dachau leaked out, resulting in so many protests that a formal investigation was eventually carried out. A US Army Commission of inquiry consisting of Pennsylvania Judge Edward van Roden and Texas Supreme Court Judge Gordon Simpson officially confirmed the charges of gross abuse. German defendants, they found, were routinely tortured at Dachau with savage beatings, burning matches under fingernails, kicking of testicles, months of solitary confinement, and threats of family reprisals. Low ranking prisoners were assured that their “confessions” would be used only against their former superiors in the dock. Later, though, these hapless men found their own “confessions” used against them when they were tried in turn. High ranking defendants were cynically assured that by “voluntarily” accepting all responsibility themselves they would thereby protect their former subordinates from prosecution.[85]
One Dachau trial court reporter was so outraged at what was happening there in the name of justice that he quit his job. He testified to a US Senate subcommittee that the “most brutal” interrogators had been three German-born Jews. Although operating procedures at the Dachau trials were significantly worse than those used at Nuremberg, they give some idea of the spirit of the “justice” imposed on the vanquished Germans."
https://www.unz.com/pub/jhr__the-nuremberg-trials-and-the-holocaust/
I read in other reports that all the defendants at Nuremberg had their testicles crushed so badly, and on nearly a daily basis along with other tortures, as to be no longer functional, moreover most of the interrogators were German Jews with intense animus. Also English Jews tortured Hoss for several days without respite until he signed the confession written in English, a language he neither spoke nor could read, and which became the centerpiece evidence of the whole Auschwitz tale for which no other concrete evidence was required other than often conflicting eyewitness testimonies without cross examination nearly all of which have since been confirmed false by Yad Vashem historians.
Not to mention that course the Russians were masters of show trials during the 20's and 30's, along with being experienced at murdering millions, some of which was ongoing whilst the trials were taking place. Two wrongs do not make a right. Indeed, the Nuremberg trials erased any moral superiority the Allies might have had by virtue of achieving victory. I cannot stomach the otherwise estimable Lavrov lecturing from on high using the twisted data and verdicts from Russian-led show trials to bolster his points. Especially since his government recently presided over the deaths of almost half a million mainly Russian-speaking Slavs. Not a good look given he and his leader lacked the diplomatic skills to avoid such a bloodbath.
you raise many disturbing questions and views here... i appreciate you raising them.. i am hopeful karl has more knowledge on this then i do.. i have basically none.. thanks..
Thank you, James. I know far less than karlof1, but I have knocked around revisionist history off and on the past few decades. I think part of the problem - and we see it in both Ukraine and Israel - is one side blaming the other whilst painting them as monsters is never better than partially justified and never does either side any real good - apart from providing favorable propaganda for the home team. The Ukraine crisis, though it has multi-century tangled roots, basically developed steadily since the US-backed coup in 2014. Eight years until the SMO started, during which time the Russians were unable to prevent what has now resulted in the deaths of about a half a million Russian speakers - their own people. Similarly in Israel they were involved in its creation - going against the votes of the Arab nations in the region who did not approve - and have basically enabled this catastrophe without, though they say all the right things now, being able to fix the injustice which they helped perpetrate. Lecturing the world about how bad the US Empire is, though justified, does no good for anybody on the ground, hundreds of whom are dying every day, just as in Ukraine.
I think ordinary folks should be critical about all world leaders on all sides. They don't have a great track record.
Random I make a point to carefully read your comments that interest me. My comment was meant for general discussion on the posted topic, cheers.
"A two state solution today is no longer a viable solution. Attempting to sell the idea is akin to a used car salesmen. Israel is a illegal militant state with its power base in the US Congress. Untill those dynamics change radically there can be no peace."
Any comments or reading suggestions are willfully excepted, thanks in advance.
thanks.. i was asked a few days ago what my solution for israel-palestine was and i said - get the usa out of israel... simple idea, but all this will have to be worked out in a much more complicated way then the simplicity of my statement.. i agree with you - ordinary folks need to be more critical about all the news information they receive and question whether they are getting a complete view on any or at least both sides of it.. generally we/they are not.. on that topic - here is my favourite link-article from today that i encourage others to read..
https://swprs.org/why-israel-created-hamas/
Can Karl put a link on his translation of what Putin said about Stalin's purges based on official Russian archives?
I can't find it.