A synopsis of Medvedev’s talk is available here. One of the news items it generated is in English, “The expert called Dmitry Medvedev's Sochi speech a new proposal to the West,” and declares: Russian publicists have already called the speech of the Deputy Chairman of the Security Council a new proposal to the West….
Karlof1@103....interesting map, but it's still not far enough. The rump can always be used as an excuse to attack Russia. Obvious that any Ukraine outside Russia's complete control, even neutral will present ongoing problems.... unfortunately the Brits are involved and they specialize in the divide and conquer and as none of their physical assets are in any danger, they'll stick the dagger into Russia as long as they can get away with it. Russia, outside economic means is only capable of killing a few Brits here and there in 404, if they think that will deter them....
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Mar 5 2024 17:33 utc | 113
Have been looking at Medvedev's map. Some very large cookies/carrots being offered up to Poland and Romania.
And Poland sure has not forgotten the massacre by the Galician nationalists/nazis. Those nazis will turn on Poland again and I suspect Poland will have no hesitation in exterminating them.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 5 2024 17:21 utc | 105
My replies:
sean the leprechaun | Mar 5 2024 17:33 utc | 113--
Agree that the Kiev area is too much. But as some have written, the map is a message that shows Russia's bargaining position. Of course, that bit of Ukraine would be DeNazified, Demilitarized and likely policed by SBU to ensure those two aspects remain; so, it wouldn't be fully sovereign. And the debts would be declared odious.
Peter AU1 | Mar 5 2024 17:21 utc | 105--
Yes, those territorial concessions are aimed at undermining NATO, IMO, as to get those lands Poland and Romania would need to rid themselves of their NATO bases and membership, while some security treaty with Russia would also be inked. IMO, many Ukrainians would accept such an outcome instead of continuing to lose the conflict and suffer more losses.
Are you aware of any formal proposals on the part of Russia to offer Poland more territory (Galicia etc.) in return for 'ridding themselves of NATO bases'? I cannot imagine that being countenanced by Poland or NATO.
He is pulling our leg. I cannot imagine Russia conceding anything like that form of territorial arrangement. Que - there is no map key to comprehend what Medvedev intends. I cannot imagine they will tolerate Poland advancing through Lvov to the Ukraine centre, No one in their right mind would want the present Polish attitude withing gunshot let alone conceding the west of Ukraine to their administration. IMO this will be a struggle unto the return of 1990 NATO and the stricken division of the EU. I gather the yellow zone will be where all the USA bio labs will be relocated ;)
For me, the most important part was the liberation of Odessa and linking with Transdniestria and the current Donbas analog for Moldova, Gagauzia, whose head, Eugenia Hutsul, Putin met with on the sidelines at Sochi. Yes, many facts on the ground still need to be made, but it's only 7 March.
IMO, the map’s the main story and is clearly a message.
Sure does. For one, Putin will not be stopping. He is suggesting that there be some multilateral allocation of territory and he is getting that conversation started. NATO and EU leadership will have a cow and need to figure out how best to save face.
Putin will likely trust no one and will want and need to control the situation. Militarily he has a way to go. May he knock off a few more Brits on the way.
My initial thoughts were that the proposed map was very generous to both Poland and Romania. Took some time out to think about it. It's quite puzzling.
Over the long term there seems to be a distinct possibility of the disintigration of NATO as one of the consequences of the Ukraine debacle despite the organisation providing the auxiliary armies for the imposition of Washington's Imperial Project.
It may be that the map represents a diplomatic carrot to both Poland and Romania to embrace pragmatically new post-NATO economic and geopolitical realities and that their future progress, much like the Sun, actually rises in the East.
The 'map', much like the 'two state' solution to end the illegal occupation of Palestine, is merely an initial proposal. As well as being a supremely impudent finger in the eye of the Washinton establishment and their EU and British compradors or imperial lackeys.
Agreed. Russia's national development isn't being lost on those two nations who once had robust trade with Russia and now have none while Russia booms. For both, EU/NATO are suffocating institutions that don't promote growth but kill it. If your nation has only a small industrial base, the EU won't help it grow bigger as its Neoliberal parasites aim to plunder it. In other words, the EU as an economic engine is a BigLie that ever more nations, particularly the smaller ones. are discovering. The Turks are indeed fortunate for the EU's racism that kept them from becoming part of that con.
Exactly. The USD is being repudiated which will lead to the financial reckoning. London Paul has an interesting take that debunks the USD millkshake theory. It's now a real choice between development and being pillaged. The future for lazy comprador elites won't be good, not as others see what they're missing.
Interesting — Uzhhorod part belonged to Czechoslovakia after WW I - when the Slovak State was formed in 1938, they have not included it …. I actually now wonder why…. Not that it has any relevance to Medvedev’s talk. Just curious.
Some commentary from MoA:
Karlof1@103....interesting map, but it's still not far enough. The rump can always be used as an excuse to attack Russia. Obvious that any Ukraine outside Russia's complete control, even neutral will present ongoing problems.... unfortunately the Brits are involved and they specialize in the divide and conquer and as none of their physical assets are in any danger, they'll stick the dagger into Russia as long as they can get away with it. Russia, outside economic means is only capable of killing a few Brits here and there in 404, if they think that will deter them....
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Mar 5 2024 17:33 utc | 113
Have been looking at Medvedev's map. Some very large cookies/carrots being offered up to Poland and Romania.
And Poland sure has not forgotten the massacre by the Galician nationalists/nazis. Those nazis will turn on Poland again and I suspect Poland will have no hesitation in exterminating them.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 5 2024 17:21 utc | 105
My replies:
sean the leprechaun | Mar 5 2024 17:33 utc | 113--
Agree that the Kiev area is too much. But as some have written, the map is a message that shows Russia's bargaining position. Of course, that bit of Ukraine would be DeNazified, Demilitarized and likely policed by SBU to ensure those two aspects remain; so, it wouldn't be fully sovereign. And the debts would be declared odious.
Peter AU1 | Mar 5 2024 17:21 utc | 105--
Yes, those territorial concessions are aimed at undermining NATO, IMO, as to get those lands Poland and Romania would need to rid themselves of their NATO bases and membership, while some security treaty with Russia would also be inked. IMO, many Ukrainians would accept such an outcome instead of continuing to lose the conflict and suffer more losses.
Are you aware of any formal proposals on the part of Russia to offer Poland more territory (Galicia etc.) in return for 'ridding themselves of NATO bases'? I cannot imagine that being countenanced by Poland or NATO.
No. Officially there are no "formal proposals." What exists are backdoor communications of the sort that Medvedev would be privy to.
Perhaps Nuland's early retirement signals a change in US posture. We'll see...
Well, she's only announced it and hasn't yet left the building. Still plenty of time for crap to be pulled.
I agree with the leprechaun. They should take the rump too. Make Kiev "little Moscow."
Shorten the defense line for themselves & Belarus.
Yes, MoA has deteriorated. I don't participate as much as I did as this takes up my time.
He is pulling our leg. I cannot imagine Russia conceding anything like that form of territorial arrangement. Que - there is no map key to comprehend what Medvedev intends. I cannot imagine they will tolerate Poland advancing through Lvov to the Ukraine centre, No one in their right mind would want the present Polish attitude withing gunshot let alone conceding the west of Ukraine to their administration. IMO this will be a struggle unto the return of 1990 NATO and the stricken division of the EU. I gather the yellow zone will be where all the USA bio labs will be relocated ;)
For me, the most important part was the liberation of Odessa and linking with Transdniestria and the current Donbas analog for Moldova, Gagauzia, whose head, Eugenia Hutsul, Putin met with on the sidelines at Sochi. Yes, many facts on the ground still need to be made, but it's only 7 March.
IMO, the map’s the main story and is clearly a message.
Sure does. For one, Putin will not be stopping. He is suggesting that there be some multilateral allocation of territory and he is getting that conversation started. NATO and EU leadership will have a cow and need to figure out how best to save face.
Putin will likely trust no one and will want and need to control the situation. Militarily he has a way to go. May he knock off a few more Brits on the way.
The map portrays a terrific sense of humour .
Medvedev has intimated such an image in his writing, but I don't know who the cartographer was in this instance.
NATO (read: US) will not like this, especially when Romania's and Poland's gains will be conditional on rolling back NATO entrenchment.
It will take more time for the US to get disentangled from NATO and Europe. Until that time, war & chaos will not abate.
My initial thoughts were that the proposed map was very generous to both Poland and Romania. Took some time out to think about it. It's quite puzzling.
Over the long term there seems to be a distinct possibility of the disintigration of NATO as one of the consequences of the Ukraine debacle despite the organisation providing the auxiliary armies for the imposition of Washington's Imperial Project.
It may be that the map represents a diplomatic carrot to both Poland and Romania to embrace pragmatically new post-NATO economic and geopolitical realities and that their future progress, much like the Sun, actually rises in the East.
The 'map', much like the 'two state' solution to end the illegal occupation of Palestine, is merely an initial proposal. As well as being a supremely impudent finger in the eye of the Washinton establishment and their EU and British compradors or imperial lackeys.
Agreed. Russia's national development isn't being lost on those two nations who once had robust trade with Russia and now have none while Russia booms. For both, EU/NATO are suffocating institutions that don't promote growth but kill it. If your nation has only a small industrial base, the EU won't help it grow bigger as its Neoliberal parasites aim to plunder it. In other words, the EU as an economic engine is a BigLie that ever more nations, particularly the smaller ones. are discovering. The Turks are indeed fortunate for the EU's racism that kept them from becoming part of that con.
Exactly. The USD is being repudiated which will lead to the financial reckoning. London Paul has an interesting take that debunks the USD millkshake theory. It's now a real choice between development and being pillaged. The future for lazy comprador elites won't be good, not as others see what they're missing.
Chomp.
Interesting — Uzhhorod part belonged to Czechoslovakia after WW I - when the Slovak State was formed in 1938, they have not included it …. I actually now wonder why…. Not that it has any relevance to Medvedev’s talk. Just curious.